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Tuesday, January 24, 2017

Foot-lac, inherent svarūpa, love him or leave him and the Hare-kṛṣṇa mantra.

Devotee - Śrī Rādhikā wears red lac on bottom of Her lotus feet or only on the sides and up the heels like seen among Indian ladies?

Advaitadās - yasyāṅka rañjita śiras – lākṣā-rasaḥ sa ca kadā padayor adhas te nyasto mayā (Vilāp-kusumānjali 43) – Kṛṣṇa’s head is colored by Rādhikā’s footlac when She puts Her foot / feet on His head. She does not sweep across His head with Her heels. padayor adhaḥ means ‘under both feet’. So the lac is proven to be on the footsoles.

Devotee - A proponent of the Inherent-svarūpa vāda, that the jīva’s siddha-svarūpa is inherently dormant in the heart, quoted this ṭīkā to Bṛhad-bhāgavatāmṛta 2.4.190 by Sanātan Gosvāmīpāda: 

nanu sarva-jñāna-kriya-śakti-pravartakaḥ hṛśīkeśo’yaṁ sarvotkṛṣṭa-tāratamya upāsanam eva sarvebhyo’pi tebhyaḥ sāmyena kiṁ na dadyat tatrāha vicitreti vicitrāṇāṁ vividhānāṁ tāsaṁ tāsāṁ rucīnāṁ bhāva-viśeṣāṇāṁ rasānāṁ vā dānaṁ tebhyo vitaraṇam. tāneti pāṭhe vistāraṇaṁ tad eva līlā tasya vibhūtim vaibhavaṁ ko janaḥ ut ucchais tarkayituṁ prabhuḥ śaktaḥ. api tu na ko’pi tatra hetuḥ samudra-koṭibhyo’pi gahano gambhīra āśayo’bhiprāyo yasya tasya. vicitra ruci vistāraṇe hetuḥ vicitra līlāyā vibhavā vaibhavāni yasya tasya anyathā vividha līlā-vaibhava-mādhurya-sampatter iti bhāvaḥ.

Advaitadās - Since no English translation was given, I will present it here –

‘If you say that Lord Hṛśīkeśa prompts all energies of action and knowledge, then why does He not give the highest type of worship to all devotees? To that it is said ‘vicitra’, there is a variety, and to different devotees He gives taste for different particular bhāvas or feelings. He distributes different rasas to them. Can anyone ascertain the prowess of the Lord’s līlā through false logic? No one can. His desires are deep (incomprehensible) like millions of oceans. Another reason for His bestowing different tastes is that the prowess of a variety of līlās is a treasure of sweetness.”

Inherent-svarūpa proponent: “Taste in a particular rasa is the action of jñāna- and kriyā-śakti of the Lord. The jñāna and kriyā-śaktis are always working on the jīva-śakti in both the conditioned and liberated states. So the śaktis responsible for the taste are already present in the jīva. They are never not present.”

Advaitadās - That’s not at all what this ṭīkā is about. It’s about why the Lord doesn’t bestow the highest rasa to everyone. It doesn’t say at all that the śaktis responsible for the taste are already present in the jīva.

Inherent-svarūpa proponent:  The Lord knows past present and future. He knows what taste will manifest at a particular point, from the relative perspective of material time. So, from the absolute perspective, the taste is fixed and the potencies responsible for it are already present. aga-jagad-okasām akhila-śakty-avabodhaka te "O Lord, you awaken all the śaktis of the living entities." (Śrīmad-bhāgavata 10.87.14) Viśvanātha Cakravartī comments that the Lord awakens the ability of the jīva to pursue the path of bhakti. Just a tip. Remember that material reason is conditioned by the concept of time, whereas transcendence is an eternal present.” 

Advaitadās - That is exactly the opposite of a svarūpa or prema being dormant in the heart. If I plan to give someone a donation next month, the receiver doesn’t own that money until next month, though I decided to donate it right now. With the same logic we can also all call ourselves liberated because it’s just a matter of time. This about Destiny, not dormancy. Bṛhad-bhāgavatāmṛta 2.4.190 doesn't say that prema is dormant but that it is given by the Lord. The added value is that Sanātan Goswāmī names the śaktis that bestow the mercy - big deal. It doesn't speak of inherent svarūpa at all. Viśvanātha Cakravartī comments on Bhakti Rasāmṛta-sindhu 3.2.77: pārṣadānāṁ rati-janmani tu anādi-siddha-saṁskāra eva hetuḥ. “Only nitya siddhas have an anādi-siddha-saṁskāra for bhakti rasa, while sādhana siddhas do not. The latter only attain rasa by sādhana and mercy (puraivokta, as described in verse 1.3.6).“ Bṛhad-bhāgavatāmṛta 2.4.190 doesn’t mention some taste already being present and later being awakened by Krsna. The verse and the commentary clearly use the word "dāna" which is glossed as "vitaraṇam", distribution. It is about giving different ruci (devotional taste), vicitra-tad-ruci-dāna-līlā, that leads to different upāsanā (types of worship) and different siddhi. If this ruci is already there in the jīva then there is no question of dāna-līlā (the pastime of giving). 

Devotee – I’m curious about the grounds for rejecting a Guru. I heard that Narahari Sarakāra’s ‘Kṛṣṇa Bhajanāmṛta’ speaks about this?

Advaitadās - Regarding ‘Kṛṣṇa Bhajanāmṛta’, I am not a fan of this booklet. Those who quote it as authoritative usually oppose Gaur Nāgari bhāva, which was so loudly preached by Narahari, and should contemplate their double standards. In other words, one cannot oppose Gaur-nāgarī and at the same time slam someone on the head with Kṛṣṇa-bhajanāmṛta, written by the same Narahari, as authoritative śāstra.
Narahari advises us in Kṛṣṇa Bhajanāmṛta - kintu yadi gurur asamañjasaṁ karoti tarhi yukti-siddhaiḥ siddhāntais tasya rahasi daṇḍaḥ karaṇīyaḥ na tu tyājyaḥ - ‘But if the Guru does something inappropriate, he should be punished (rebuked) in private with the proper reasonable philosophy. He should not be rejected, though.” The 3rd offence to harinām is guror avagya, disregard of the Guru, and Śrīmad Bhāgavata 7th and 11th canto clearly condemn a human conception of Śrī Gurudeva - yasya sākṣād bhagavati jñāna dīpa prade gurau martyāsaddhiḥ śrutaṁ tasya sarvaṁ kuñjara śaucavat (Śrīmad Bhāgavata 7.15.26) “Whoever has the foolish notion that the Guru, the bestower of the lamp of divine knowledge, who is God Himself, is a mere mortal, has all his learning lost, just as an elephant throws dust all over himself after bathing.” ācāryaṁ māṁ vijānīyān nāvamānyeta karhicit na martya buddhyāsūyeta sarva devamayo guruḥ (Śrī Kṛṣṇa in Śrīmad Bhāgavata 11.17.27) "You should know the ācārya to be Me, never slight or disrespect him or find faults in him, considering him to be an ordinary mortal, for Śrī Gurudeva is the aggregate of all the Gods."  
How then can a śiṣya approach Guru and get on his case, even in private? Narahari even uses the word daṇḍya, Guru is punishable. I find that hellishly offensive. Either love Guru or leave him. Narahari later writes - loka-sva stavaiḥ kṛṣṇam anukaroti – “If the Guru praises himself to the people as Kṛṣṇa, or imitates Kṛṣṇa”. This must be judged on a case-by-case basis. If this refers to a sahajiyā who has His private Rāsa-līlās, then such a Guru can be abandoned. But in other cases it can be accepted. My Guru accepted Śiva-abhimāna, which is onthologically correct, considering his family lineage. 

Devotee – Some say the hare-kṛṣṇa mantra should be chanted, in kīrtan, completely, and not in 2 halves or so.

Advaitadās – Śrīman Mahāprabhu said in Śikṣāṣṭakam – nāmnām akāri bahudhā nija sarva-śaktis tatrārpita niyamitaḥ smaraṇe na kālaḥ - ‘You have invested all Your transcendental energies within Your holy name and there are no hard and fast rules for chanting them.’


  1. No hard and fast rules, yet I have not seen any evidence that Mahaprabhu, Sri Radha, or any acarya chanted the maha mantra in '2 halves' or ever advocated doing so. I've not read anywhere that they chanted 'half' the mahamantra, audience repeats, then they chant the other half and so on.

  2. In fact there's no evidence that Mahaprabhu did hare krishna mantra kirtan at all....

  3. I'm presuming your response is a joke. In any case, your response is off point, very strange, and disproved:

    While Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Advaita Prabhu chanted the Hare Krsna mantra and danced, there were various ecstatic symptoms in Their bodies, and Their minds were very pleased.

    Cc Adi 12.21

    Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu proceeded toward Jagannatha Puri with four of His devotees, and He chanted the holy name of the Lord, the Hare Krsna mantra, with great eagerness.

    Cc Madhya 4.10

    When someone heard the chanting of the holy name from the mouth of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and someone else heard this chanting from that second person, and someone again heard this chanting from the third person, everyone in all countries became a Vaisnava through such disciplic succession. Thus everyone chanted the holy name of Krsna and Hari, and they danced, cried and smiled.

    Cc Madhya 17.48–49

    After taking sannyasa at the age of twenty-four, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu lived another twenty-four years. For six of these years, He traveled extensively throughout India, sometimes going to Jagannatha Puri and sometimes leaving. After traveling for six years, the Lord fixed His residence at Jagannatha Puri and stayed there for the eighteen remaining years of His life. During these eighteen years He mainly chanted Hare Krsna with His devotees.

    Cc Madhya 25.241

    Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's personal servant, Govinda, lay down at the door of His room, and the Lord very loudly chanted the Hare Krsna maha-mantra all night.

    Cc Antya 17.9

    Exhibiting His scholarship, beauty and fine dress, Lord Caitanya danced and chanted as He distributed the holy name of the Lord to awaken dormant love of Krsna. Thus Lord Sri Gaurasundara shone in His youthful pastimes.

    Cc Adi 17.4

    That's just a very, very, very few references, from one source.

    1. Hi Mike,

      dui gosāi 'hari' bole ānandita mana [adi 12.21]
      The two Lords said 'Hari' [not hare kṛṣṇa mantra]

      cāri bhakta sange kṛṣṇa-kīrtan kutūhole [madhya 4.10]

      With four devotees they eagerly did Kṛṣṇa kīrtan [not hare kṛṣṇa mantra]

      Even your given translation of Madhya 17.48-49 does not mention the hare kṛṣṇa mantra

      Madhya 25.241 says saṣṭhe - sārvabhaumera korilā uddhāra; saptame - tīrtha yātrā vāsudeva nistāra
      It says nothing about hare kṛṣṇa mantra at all.

      Antya 17.9 speaks of ucca sankīrtana - loud chanting [not hare kṛṣṇa mantra]

      Antya 17.4 says ardharātri gowāilā kṛṣṇa kathā range - He spent half the night speaking about Kṛṣṇa. this is not even kīrtan but kathā

  4. As well as where our acaryas stated as such. For example:

    In Sri Caitanyastaka (5), Srila Rupa Gosvami has stated:

    hare krsnety uccaih sphurita-rasano nama-ganana-

    "Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu chants the Hare Krsna maha-mantra in a loud voice. The holy name dances on His tongue as He counts the number of recitations with His effulgent hand."

    CB Antya-khanda 3.164

    "He makes the gift of the song of the names 'Hare, Krishna and Rama', and destroys all obstacles such as sorrow, delusion, greed and suffering. He gives the devotional service of Lord Krishna to the multitude of devotees who are eager for the shelter of His lotus feet. I fall down swiftly to offer my prostrated obeisances to the Lord in His golden form, who holds a string of meditation beads." (Srila Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya, Susloka-Satakam 23)

    Bhaktivinoda Thakura says in his song Sri Nama from Gitavali:

    gay gora madhur sware
    hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare
    hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare

    Lord Gaurasundara sings in a very sweet voice, Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.

    So He is 'giving a gift,' but not chanting Himself? Are you saying that Lord Caitanya did not follow His own instructions, or that where the acaryas stated He chanted the holy name, that they are not being accurate/ lying? I'm really not clear on what is your point/ And again, you changed the topic, failed to disprove my point, as well as made some serious weird accusations against the Lord (and by association, the previous acaryas). I'm not clear on your intentions, which seem duplicitous and obfuscatory.

    1. Mike,
      The verses of Rupa Goswami and Sarvabhauma speak of japa, not of kirtan. Bhaktivinode is not a purva acarya and quotes from him will not be accepted unless they are confirmed by the founding ācāryas

  5. In Prema-vivarta, Srila Jagadananda Pandita describes the super-excellent narration of the divine glories of the Hare Krishna Maha-mantra by the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself to His devotee Krishnadas as follows:

    One day, Krishnadas broke his long silence and asked Lord Caitanya a question in Kashi Mishra's house. "If you will kindly permit me to ask, then please tell me about the unlimited and wonderful glories of the Hare Krishna Maha-mantra, about which even Lord Siva and Lord Brahma are unacquainted."

    Lord Caitanya replied: "The excellences of the Maha-mantra are like an ever-expanding shoreless ocean. Even Lord Krishna Himself does not know the limits of It, what to speak of ordinary mortals. I will simply repeat what is written in the scriptures. If you listen with proper faith, you can be delivered from this distressful material world.

    "The Maha-mantra is capable of dissolving sins and removing impediments. The Maha-mantra embalms sufferings and diminishes the detriments that are so characteristic of Kali-yuga. It redeems the unredeemable residents of hellish planets and nullifies the inevitable sinful reactions carried over from previous births. The Maha-mantra purifies offenses and is the quintessence of all transcendental
    activities, shining more brilliantly than the Vedas. The scriptures declare that the chanting of the Hare Krishna Maha-mantra is the highest spiritual activity, higher than making pilgrimages to the holiest of places. The Maha-mantra is omnipotent and benedicts the chanter with unimaginable good fortune---. It's
    very nature is that It elevates one to experience divine bliss. The chanter is no ordinary person, for he becomes worthy of the entire world's praise. The Maha-mantra is the only means of salvation for the fallen conditioned souls, and It is always worshipable for It offers the much desired liberation, exalts one to the supreme spiritual abode and blesses the chanter with transcendental love of Godhead, Sri Hari.

    The Sruti and Smrti contain proofs of the Maha-mantra's sublime position. It is the supreme destination of all spiritual aspirations and the mainstream of the current of bhakti."

    So unless you want to discount pretty much all evidences from all acaryas and the Lord Himself, I cannot see how you can adequately support your off-topic point.

    1. Mike, this does not mention kirtan at all either. We all agree on the glories of the hare kṛṣṇa mantra, and we are singing it in kīrtan ourselves too, because Mahāprabhu said - tatrārpita niyamita smaraṇe na kālaḥ 'There are no hard and fast rules' So we are full circle again. Hare Kṛṣṇa!

  6. I sent you a LOT of other references. Here's more:

    Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
    Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
    Hare Rama Hare Rama
    Rama Rama Hare Hare

    sa eva mula-mantram japati harir iti krsna iti rama iti || 11 ||

    “He (Lord Caitanya) chants the original mantra consisting of Hari, Krishna and Rama.”
    (Caitanya Upanisad)
    Rupa Gosvami also states that the Lord chants the mahamantra in his Laghu Bhagavatamritam (1.4):

    “The syllables ‘Hare Krishna’ and so forth emanated from the mouth of Sri Caitanya, drowning the universe in prema. Let these names be glorified!”

    He longs to again attain the darsana of Sri Caitanya’s calling out the holy names, as presented in Stavamala, Prathama Caitanyastakam (5):

    “When will Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu - whose tongue is always dancing by loudly calling out ‘Hare Krishna!’; who counts the names which He is calling out on the splendorous strip of cloth from around His waist which has been tied with knots for chanting; whose eyes are so large that they seem to reach His ears; and whose arms extend down to His knees - again become visible to me?”

    Here the word “uccaih”, “loudly”, is used for Mahaprabhu’s chanting of Hare Krishna. Baladeva confirms in his Stava-mala-vibhusana-bhasya that this indeed refers to the thirty-two syllable maha-mantra:

    “The Hare Krishna mantra was resounding in His mouth. The mantra consisting of sixteen names and thirty-two syllables was uttered and dancing on His tongue.”

    The following instance of Sri Caitanya’s chanting the maha-mantra is found in the Caitanya Mangala of Locana Das:

    bAhu prasAriyA prabhu brAhmaNe tulilA | tAra ghare bhakti bhare gAna AraMbhilA || brAhmaNera ghara yena haila vRndAvana | hari-nAma zunibAre Aise sarva-jana || hare kRSNa hare kRSNa kRSNa kRSNa hare hare | hare rAma hare rAma rAma rAma hare hare ||

    “Once Mahaprabhu visited the home of a brahmana and embraced him. The kirtana that followed made that home become just like Vrindavana and a multitude of people gathered to hear and chant the holy names: ‘Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna

    And Sri Caitanya Bhagavata:

    Apane sabAre prabhu kore upadeze | kRSNa-nAma mahA-mantra zunoho hariSe|| 75 || hare kRSNa hare kRSNa kRSNa kRSNa hare hare | hare rAma hare rAma rAma rAma hare hare|| 76 || prabhu kohe kohilam ei mahA-mantra | iha japa giyA sabe koriyA nirbandha|| 77 || iha hoite sarva-siddhi hoibe sabAra | sarva kSaNa bolo ithe vidhi nAhi Ara || 78 ||

    “The Lord ordered everyone in great joy: ‘Listen to the Krishna-nama mahamantra: Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare, Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare.’ The Lord said: ‘I spoke this maha-mantra. Perform japa of this according to the rules. All perfection will be attained through this. Chant this all the time – there is no other rule.’”

    In the book ‘Sri Caitanya Carita Maha-kavya’, composed by Srila Kavi Karnapura, the following is written about Sriman Mahaprabhu’s acceptance of sannyasa:

    tataH zrI gaurAGgaH samavadad atIva pramudito hare kRSNety uccair vada muhur iti zrImaya tanuH | tato ’sau tat procya pratibalita romAJca lalito rudaMs tat tat karmArabhata bahu-duHkhair vidalitaH || 54 ||

    “When Sri Gauranga accepted sannyasa, the barber took the blade in his hand but was not able to shave any of the Lord’s curly locks out of grief. In great ecstasy Sri Gauranga deva told him to repeatedly chant the Hare Krishna maha-mantra out loud. Then the barber loudly chanted the Hare Krishna maha-mantra and began his job of shaving while he wept and his body was studded with goose pimples.”

    There’s plenty of evidence.

  7. Locan's and Kavi Karnapura's quotes are accepted. Thank you.
    Caitanya-bhāgavat quote mentions japa, not kīrtan.

  8. So, that being now sorted, where's any evidence that the Lord chanted the maha mantra in 'two parts' as the previous person asked?

    1. Evidence is - Mahāprabhu said - tatrārpita niyamita smaraṇe na kālaḥ 'There are no hard and fast rules'