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Tuesday, June 11, 2013

Rādhārāni (the word) not in śāstra


Recently I had this discussion on Facebook with Hari Pārṣada Dās:

Hari Pārṣada Dās:  
You wrongly spelled radharani in your last blog.

Advaita Dās:
“ṇ should be like that.”

Hari Pārṣada Dās
“No its not RĀṆĪ it should be RĀNĪ - राधारानी its not राधाराणी. I think the word may not be found in ancient Sanskrit dictionaries. It will be found in the Hindi dictionaries. The Sanskrit word is rājñī. I found it on spokensanskrit.de. It is rānī not rāṇī.”

Advaita Dās:
“It is not in Apte’s Sanskrit dictionary. Yes, I see it in spoken sanskrit.de. Strange. I thought the n was Hindi and the ṇ was Sanskrit.”

Hari Pārṣada Dās
“Well as I said Apte is a Sanskrit dictionary and rānī is a later prākṛta or śūrasenī word. Some Hindi words become mixed in Sanskrit. The Goswāmis never use rānī.”

Advaita Dās:
Very interesting. I never thought of that. It is rājñi in Vilāpa Kusumānjali (14): vṛndāraṇya rājñi

Hari Pārṣada Dās:
"Indeed. There are some words like these which confirm my suspicion that some languages have found some way in Sanskrit."

Advaita Dās:
"Yes I know. Most online Sanskrit dictionaries even include the suffix 'ji', which is Muslim."

Hari Pārṣada Dās:
"Yes. The word jī has come from jī huzoor. jī sāheb."

Advaita Dās:
"It is so deeply engrained in Indian usage that it even crept into the Sanskrit lexicon. How about pātarāni or patta-rāṇī? This is also Muslim?"

Hari Pārṣada Dās:
"Yes. Should we not be surprised if some Muslim styles of playing harmonium have crept in our kīrtanas? Paṭarānī is not in spokensanskrit.de which means it’s not in Amarakosa or the old lexicons. rājñī is the standard word for ‘queen’. The Gosvāmīs’ inspiration for poetry have been Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura and Jayadeva Gosvāmī, so i doubt that they'll use those words. And Rūpa Gosvāmī is thoroughly trained in nāṭya śāstra, so he will stick to pure Sanskrit.

End note:

I went through all my e-files of śāstra with Word Search - the Bhāgavata and all the Gosvāmīs’ books, and the word rāṇī is indeed mentioned nowhere at all. Nice studies are the 108 names of Rādhā or Visākhānandada Stotram by Srīla Raghunātha Dās Goswāmī (Advaitadas.)

30 comments:

  1. It could practically be possible but I have not seen it anywhere in shastra, no.

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  2. Hare Krsna! Pamho Advaita Prabhu. Speaking of SrimatiJi, I had a question. Pujyapad Narasingha Swami of gosai.com says Srila Sukadev is not written anywhere that He is a pet parrot of SrimatiJi. The link is here:http://gosai.com/writings/sriya-suka however H H Bhakti Vikas swami in BTG us edition 2008 clearly states that ithis identity of Srila Sukadev Goswami being a parrot in Goloka Leela is confirmed by Srila Jiva Goswami himself in his Gopala Campu. The link is here:http://backtogodhead.in/the-glories-of-sukatal-by-bhakti-vikasa-swami/ So please Advaita Prabhu, I am a kanishtha adhikari so I am quite unqualified to look into Gopala Campu to find the verse, but you Prabhu are an accomplished scholar as is evident from your published works. Please could you confirm or deny the statements of H H Bhakti Vikas Swami in the above article? I would like to get to the bottom of this, with your help! Dasanudasa aspirant, s.

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  3. Anonymous, perhaps it is best to ask Bhakti Vikas Swami in which verse or khanda of Gopal Campu this is mentioned because I have not seen this mentioned myself. If you received his reply please post it here. Thank you!

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  4. http://www.bvks.com/2012/08/how-did-sukadeva-become-impersonalist-eventhough-he-knew-that-krishna-is-supreme in this link Advaita Prabhu, in the audio H H Bhakti Vikas Swami mentions that Srila Sukadeva being a Parrot of SrimatiJi is mentioned in the Bramha-Vaivarta Purana. So perhaps it is mentioned in both the places. Surely to assert definitely that in none of the Gaudiya Vaishnav scriptures, in some song or in some play that this is not being hinted at, is perhaps not true. To have read ALL of the Sanskrit works by ALL of our Acharyas, is it even possible in one lifetime?! To confirm all the references from the Vedas and Upanishads and Puranas.....that requires a full team of round the clock researcher-devotees I would assume. Anyway, I still havr hope that it is mentioned somewhere and perhaps we havent come across it, yet. In Pujyapada Narasingha Maharaj's article, he does state that 25 percent of the so-called sahajiya babaji's DID CONFIRM OF THIS IDENTITY OF SRILA SUKADEV GOSVAMI BEING A PARROT OF SRIMATIJI. And why not? Is this transcendental subject now to be decided by votes or popularity? It certainly is possible. I dont agree that Srila Sukadev was being like a tape recorder. If that is so, why is it said that he would go into samadhi for 6 months if he intoned or even heard the Naam of SrimatiJi? Anyway, I havent heard from H H bhakti Vikas Swami on this yet. I hope to soon. But perhaps its not meant to be.

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  5. Anon,
    1. If someone claims something he must provide evidence for that from shastra, with chapter and verse number.
    2. Brahma Vaivarta Purana is a highly interpolated text.
    3. Nowadays there are e-files of all shastras and it is very easy to find if a word like 'suka' is or is not in a certain shastra. I have neither found this, in this context, in Gopalcampu or in Brahma Vaivarta Purana.
    4. It does not take around the clock teams to know all shastra, especially not in the modern age of searchable e-books.
    So let us wait for Bhakti Vikas Swami or anyone else to provide minute references, with chapter- and verse numbers, then.

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  6. Pamho Advaita Prabhu. Another question, and I need your expertise. There is a book translated of Sri Ananta Das Babaji Maharaj, called ' raganuga bhakti a comprehensive study' its available here:http://kunjeshwari.com/sweettext.html now, on pg 12 of the pdf its says " srila narottama das thakura has written in his prem bhakti chandrika " do not follow the sakhis who are in the mood of sama-sneha and vishama-sneha, I shall discuss only adhika-sneha sakhis..." so here clearly the preference for the manjaris is stressed. My question is, where is this verse in PBC? Is this written in bengali by Sri Ananta Das Babaji and translsted into eng? Advaita Prabhu, I have recently acquired your own translation of PBC published in 2010. The nice big book with 709 pages! Could you please show me the above verse in there? You can tell me the page number and I will find it. Its important for me to know that manjaribhava reference. I need to know the right siddhanta. As you know, other Prabhu's are saying different, like parama preshtha sakhis experience the highest and are the highest position to aspire for. Awaiting your reply Prabhuji.

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  7. Anonymous, this line is in all editions of Prema Bhakti Candrika that I saw in Bengali. I do not know which publishers have omitted this line?
    It was not inserted by Anantadasji. He does not interpolate in shastra.
    I have not seen the 2010 edition myself, I have here just an e-copy of my own work.
    If you are looking for manjari bhāva references, there are so many śāstras written on it - Vilāpa Kusumānjali, Sankalpa Kalpadruma, Kṛṣṇa Bhāvanāmṛta, Vṛndāvana Mahimāmṛta, other couplets of Prema Bhakti Candrikā, Utkalika Vallari, Rādhā Rasa Sudhānidhi, the list is endless. Those who say parama prestha sakhī are supreme should read these books first. Vilāpa Kusumānjali verses 16 and 92 already proclaim boldly that manjari bhāva is superior to Sakhi bhāva.

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  8. Sri Sri Guru Gaurangau Jayataha! Hare Krsna! Pamho Advaita Prabhu. I am a kanishtha adhikari so I carefully tiptoe around these extremely high matters of transcendental siddhanta, and so far I am grateful to know a little deeper of the highest goal that internally is aspired for by a majority of my Guru Varga in the Caitanya Gaudiya Vaishnav Sampradaya. I finally had the courage to lok into your PBC translation, and its really a handsome book, with such an attractive cover and good binding. On page 316 the verse of "sama sheha visama sneha na koriho dui leha" is explained and expertly translated by Sri Ananta PanditJi and into eng by yourself. Reading it really gladdened my heart. If you see in the ebbok.iskcondesiretree translation of the same verse, its terrible! The translator Prabhu completely misses the point made by Sri Thakura Mahasaya. I am glad that atleast I have your book to show me what the verse really says. Srila Narottama ThakurJi is saying, I will only describe those who have adhika sneha towards SrimatiJi, (and not those with sama sneha and those with more sneha towards Sr Krsna). Isnt this another confirmation, that all our Acharyas specifically followed the Manjari Bhava sidhanta as the highest possible aspiration? So then why are some Prabhuji's coming out and saying that "actually the p-p sakhis get to sometime love Sri Krsna more than SrimatiJi and so they sometimes prefer to meet alone with Sri Krsna. And even SrimatiJi wants this. So these are the highest sakhis and our highest goal. " and they quote from Ujjvala Nilamani to say that Srila VCThimself says so! But to me, the most amazing and the most appealing siddhanta is not direct contact with Sri Krsna, even if it is possible, but to have more sneha towards SrimatiJi and arrange to serve in Their meeting and their seva, completely giving up desire for direct contact with Sri Krsna, even if He wants it, and even if SrimatiJi says to do so. There is something just so powerful about this Manjari Bhava. I dont think its for no reason that all our acharyas have taugt this as the highest.

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  9. Anonymous, the Prabhuji you are referring to has not received manjari bhava from Guru - he is just theorizing with shastra and his own brain salad. Manjari bhava is only received from Guru, though there is sound evidence of its supremacy in shastra too - see Vilapa Kusumanjali verse nr.16 and Vraja Vilasa Stava nr. 38, both by Raghunath Das Goswami, who is also known as Prayojan Acarya, the acarya who points out the supreme goal for mankind.

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  10. Pamho Advaita Prabhu. Thank you for the VK verse numbers, I will look them up. Actually I wanted to say "preference for Manjari bhava" and not just reference. It was a spelling error on my part in the previous reply. I am writing from a borrowed smartphone, so its a bit tedious at times! Anyway, if you could please also give more references in verses or commentary to the verses which say specifically that ".......therefore Manjari seva/SrimatiJi-adhika sneha is the topmost position to aspire in service" I would really appreciate it! I am very happy to read your translation of the PBC where Srila Ananta Das Babaji clearly establishes this highest bhava as bonafide and accepted by all Acharyas. The same opinion is given by Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaj, so these 2 great Sadhus are in complete agreement on this point and its a joy to see. I feel that the discussion on this matter of bhava and why it is not recommended to, from the baddhajiva stage, to aspire for direct contact with Sri Krsna, this is very important to establish. Because what if its your hidden ego or lust thats making you think so? In fact, wouldnt it be prudent to be very careful in the sadhana bhajana stage when your lust hasnt completely transmuted into true Prema? What is your opinion Prabhu? I know deep in my heart that neither the gopis nor Sri Krsna have Any trace of mundane kama. It just appears so, to mundane eyes and this is precicely why we are adviced to be cautious. However even if some aspire to be like Kubja or the queens of Dwarka or the Parama Preshtha sakhi followers (can tatadtha jivas be p-p sakhis? I dont know) these aspirations are of course possible and I will not say anything against them. BUT our Acharyas fully knowingly have chosen to be Rupanuga, to aspire to adhika Sneha towards SrimatiJi, and that is very very telling. I would like to know your take on this matter Advaita Prabhu. Dasanudasa Aspirant, s.

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  11. Anonymous, I have quoted 2 verses as evidence plus there is the couplet in PBC you kindly quoted. You have heard the opinion of 2 leading raganuga acaryas. There is probably more evidence but I cannot think of that right now, I am very busy. But apart from that and above that this is anubhava vedya, to be known through experience. The proof of the pudding lies in the eating. That is why I say again, it is a gift of mercy from Guru only.

    Yes unfortunately it happens that materially lusty people get attracted to this too, but there is no general rule like that, that you have to be free from lust to practise this, or that anyone can practise this. This can be practised by persons who have genuine attraction to it and who have firm faith in the selfless spiritual nature of these pastimes. Kubja bhava or p.p. bhava is all possible but it is obviously less tasty than manjari bhava.

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  12. Hare Krsna! Pamho Advaita Prabhu. I am quite satisfied with your elaborate replys. I just have one more point that I would like to hear from you. In kamanuga there are 2 divisions, sambhogicchamayi and tat tad bhavaicchamayi. Now, those following and included in SrimatiJi's group, are 5 'types'. Technically it is said that all 5 are tat tad bhavaicchamayi. However, we see that fully tat tad bhavaicchamayi are 'only' the prana akhis and their followers the nitya sakhis. Whereas practically the priya sakhis do sometimes have sambhogicchamayi in them. So the manjaris never ever desire direct meeting with Sri Krsna. Even if both Sri Krsna Himself wants, and even if SrimatiJi insists. Whereas this is not true with the priya sakhis. I do realize, that even if sometimes it happens, lets say for points sake,that the manjaris do meet Him alone it will only be on the insistence of SrimatiJi and then too, the meeting will be different qualitatively. My point is, the Prabhuji we have referredto previously says the following: the manjaris do meet with Him directly, and prema prayojana prabhu says so Iin one video thats on facebook. Prema prayojana prabhu Iis doing the trans of UN. Thus because the manjaris meet, therefore priya sakhis are then the same as manjaris. Thus too muh is made of the manjaris not meeting directly with Sri Krsna. And therefore its ok to 'sometimes' have sambhogicchamayi desire towards Sri Krsna while still being in SrimTiJi's group, because hey the manjaris do it too. Now Advaita Prabhu, I findthis 'logic quite weak and quite deceptive. Please could you comment on what you think.

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  13. Anonymous, let me repeat that manjari bhāva is attained from a bonafide Guru in a bonafide paramparā. Forgive me for being blunt but the gentlemen under discussion -

    1] Have manjarī bhāva only between the ears [mere intellectual discovery],
    2] Follow a 'lineage' which claims that "rāgānugā bhakti comes after sādhana bhakti", "rāgānugā bhakti is attained at the stage of niṣṭhā or āsakti", and "in rāgānugā one does not follow the rules so strictly".

    Perhaps you should study the commentaries on Vilapa Kusumanjali by Ananda Gopāl Goswāmī and Anantadas Bābājī, and/or 'Manjari Swarup Nirupana' by Kunjabihārī dās Bābājī?

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  14. Hare Krsna! Pamho Advaita Prabhu. Thank you for giving me this opportunity to learn from you. I really pray to resolve this siddhantic confusion of mine, whether the nitya sakhis who are sadhana siddha and are following the principal manjaris called Prana sakhis, are sambhogicchamayi or not. If they meet with Sri Krsna directly with their own desire or not. They are palya dasis, protected maidservants. So I really would like to hear from an advanced Vaishnava, that they Never desire to directly have leela with Sri Krsna. If it still does sometime take place then THAT IS DIFFERENT. But the will 100% of the time be loyal to Srimatiji with adhika sneha. If someone says yes the manjaris do meet directly with Sri Krsna, still they are never having the desire to do so which can overwhelm their greater desire of being loyal only to SrimatiJi. The sadhana siddha manjaris are afterall what we baddha jivas can aspire to one day be included in. So, this is why the instructions of great Rupanuga Acharyas is clear, that the manjaris never desire to directly enjoy with Sri Krsna. I just wish, it was made more clear by yourself PrabhuJi. Sri Rupa Manjari and other Principal Manjaris can do anything, but the sadhana siddha aspiring jivas, they still have to be careful to follow the rules and not be confused. And another matter, Advaita Prabhu I would really like to read the VK grantha with the commentaries of Them Both. But its not available! Could you make it available with rasbihari lal and sons? Or anyone else in india if they have could you instruct me further? I can get the shipment from them as well, no problem. I know since 2009 apparently the 2vol VK is out of print, but if anyone has copies in india that they can sell thats great. Please let me know if thats the case. Dasanudasa aspirant, s.

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  15. Anonymous, the manjaris are tad bhāvecchātmikā, which means they aspire to share Rādhā's feelings only. It is also called bhāva tādātmya, oneness in feeling. They never desire personal union with Kṛṣṇa at all. It is not that Rūpa Manjari is having such a relationship and we will not have, for any reason at all, whether she is nitya siddha or not has nothing to do with that. Vilāpa Kusumānjali was originally commented upon by Śrī Ananda Gopāl Goswāmī, my Guru's father and my param gurudeva. It is available from me, or perhaps from Yugal Kishor Dās in Rādhākund, with added comments by Anantadas Bābājī. It will not be available from Rasbihari Lal.

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  16. Hare Krsna! Pamho Advaita DasJi. ( I heard that Prabhu is more used in Iskcon, but may not be used to address Vaishnavas 'outside' of Iskcon since they regard themselves as being Das and of course actually being a Das is a very very big thing. I agree, I shouldnt expect to impose my wrong concepts on you AdvaitaJi please forgive me) I am very satisfied by your last reply. I would like to get the VK commentary from you but the shipping will be very expensive. Are you currently working on any new titles, since 2009? Thank you again. Dasanudasa aspirant, s.

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  17. Prabhu was introduced in Gaudiya Math and taken to the west by ISKCON. Actually it has been devalued greatly. It was a title given to Mahaprabhu, Sanatan Goswami, the great acaryas, Vyasadeva but nowadays it is said to Rikshawallas and totally fallen people, as a habitual address. I blogged on this before but I cannot remember when.
    You cannot impose any wrong concepts on me, I was a member of ISKCON in the 1970s, I know all their ideas and customs very well. Yes the VK is expensive to send to those living outside the EU, regrettably. If you live in India you can get a copy from Sri Radhakund.

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  18. Hare Krsna Advaita DasJi! I received your translstion of VK thru the mail. I am surprised by the size, 29cm by 21cm! And its a nice binding, even as a plastic cover on it! How wonderful. I dont see the date of printing on it, but it must be atleast 10 years ago, but still in gogd shape. I am looking forward to reading it! I have contacted Yugal Kishore Ji as well. Also, can you tell me who to contact to get the hindi translations of Babaji's books? The ones in hindi are done by Braja Gopal AgrawalJi. I would like to get them, pls help!

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  19. Anonymous, glad to hear you like the book. It was originally translated by me between 1984 and 1988 somewhere, and upgraded often after that. I am not in charge of the Hindi books, though. Please contact Brajananda Ghera for that, the center of Anantadas Babaji at Radhakund.

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  20. Pamho Advaita DasJi! I had a question on the origin of the notes in VK. It is written that Nivarana Bapu made elaborate notes of these lectures in 1954. The next line is Sri Madrasi Baba was the sole proprietor of these notes. So these were the Malyalam notes that were copied by himself and his brother HaridasJi. What then happened to the original notes of Nivarana Bapu? Did Nivarana Bapu personally give his own notes to someone? Like passing down a precious treasure? I am just a little confused, because if Madrasi BabaJi had the 'original' notes of Nivarana Bapu, then he wouldnt have needed to copy them again in malyalam script. Also another question. This orecious VK copy that I have, it seems like its been printed from a printer page by page. This volume is beautifully bound hardrcover with ribbon. Blue ribbon and royal blue cover with artwork. However this doesnt seem to be printed in a printing press. Could you help solve this mystery?!

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  21. Forgot to add, either its from a small printer, or it could also be xerox pages. Because there are these spots and lines that are signs of it being a xerox copy of the original. Now the paper quality is excellent, its still white after all these years. And the text is of course completely legible, no problems at all. Its just such an interesting copy, I would like to know more of its genesis. There is no printing info or any date in the beginning pages, so its even more unique to me! Probably only a few were made, perhaps by hand.

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  22. Regarding your first question, Madrasi Babaji wrote me in a letter on May 18, 1997:

    "...these notes were written by Sri Naresh Goswami, who got it from the disciple of Sri Ananda Gopal Goswami written in Bengali script which cannot be read by this humble self. My brother Sri Haripada Das Babaji helped this humble self very much."

    Undoubtedly he wanted to say with this that his brother knew Bengali script and transliterated the entire text into Malayalam for him.

    I am not in charge of the recent publications of these books, but I think they are printed out scans of the originals or xerox copies of the originals, which I printed with a laser printer in 1993.

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  23. Accha. So Naresh Goswami was the Bengali Goswami who wrote down the dictation by Nivarana Bapu, in bengali. The notes which Nivarana Bapu was dictating, were also in bengali. And then as the story unfolds, these copied down notes of Naresh Goswami are in turn copied by the brother of Sri Madrasi BabaJi. Fascinating account! The reason I asked this question was, there was the last page missing from the notebook by Naresh Goswami. Monkey had probably ripped it out. So, it was somehow re-written. Now, if Nivarana Bapu was still in this world, or if someone close to him had his own written notes during the lectures of Ananda Gopala Goswami, then it would have been easy to refer to this notebook to again complete Naresh Goswami's copy. I wonder why this did not happen. Surely Nivarana Bapu and Naresh Goswami BOTH HAD COPIES OF THE SAME NOTES. So there were 2 master copies as it were. If something in one was missing, then you could still complete it exactly seeing the other identical copy. Thats why I asked the question. The original hand written notes of Nivarana Bapu, which he dictated to Naresh Goswami, must have been with him. I wonder then, who inherited his handwritten notes. Dont you wish that we could go back in time, and actually record those profoundly glorious lectures of Nanada Gopala Goswami?! Ahhhh! By the way, Advaita Das Ji, do you think KunjaBehari Das Goswami met Sri Ananda Gopala Goswami?

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  24. There are many wonders. Madrasi Baba spoke fluent Bengali but could not read it, though he was not at all illiterate. Who wrote the purports to the last 20 verses that we have in the printed book? Some say it was Anantadas ji, I think it could have been Nivāran Bābu himself too.

    Now, if Nivarana Bapu was still in this world, or if someone close to him had his own written notes during the lectures of Ananda Gopala Goswami, then it would have been easy to refer to this notebook to again complete Naresh Goswami's copy. I wonder why this did not happen.

    Obviously no one else in the audience made notes.

    Dont you wish that we could go back in time, and actually record those profoundly glorious lectures of Ananda Gopala Goswami?! Ahhhh!

    Oh baba, if we could turn back the hands of time [we cannot].....
    I would be so much better a siṣya of my Guru than I have been during his life, I would record every syllable he and Ānanda Gopāl Prabhu spoke etc. etc.

    By the way, Advaita Das Ji, do you think Kunja Behari Das Goswami met Sri Ananda Gopala Goswami?

    KBDB lived from 1896-1976. Practically a contemporary of AGG. Who knows? There is no record of such a meeting however.

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  25. Ah yes! And when I said " his own written notes" I meant Nivarana Bapu's handwritten notes. Only he had made notes in the lecture and his one time hearing memory is praised in the account. I wonder though how Nivarana Bapu could have completed the last 20 verses. Perhaps if again either Sri Madrasi BabaJi or his brother or Naresh Goswami would have approached Nivarana Bapu after the page ripping incident. Still some things are unclear. 1954 is the time when the notes were made originally. Do we know when the notebook of Naresh Goswami was stolen? It has to be earlier than early 1970's. But that still leaves around 20 years, in which perhaps Nivarana Bapu may have entered nitya leela, I dont know.But again, once the notes were dictated to Naresh Goswami by Nivarana Bapu, did they further have contact, especially after the page ripping incident, Iis important to this story. Because if the did, only then could have Nivarana Bapu completed the notes, or we should say, re-dictated the missing pages.

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  26. Yes anon, these are some unanswered questions, but to quote Śrī Ānanda Gopāl Goswāmī himself: "If a hungry and tired man sees a mango tree he will take rest in its shade and relish the sweet mangos without bothering who the owner is, how old the tree is and what is the weight of each mango." Similarly this kathā is to be relished, the details of the origins are not that important.

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  27. Hare Krsna Advaita Das Ji! The unanswered questions are also very exciting for me, they have a life of their own, because this subject matter is so dear to me, its like I am 'chatting' about my own extended family. I feel like I have a 'right to know' and that feeling comes only when you consider yourself already involved in their lives, and of course you are not, but still.....their influence is so great on you, and you are so grateful for these priceless treasuresthey have left for you that you want to knock on the door and say thank you and do dandavat pranamas. All I have, is these accounts, but they are so animated and very personal to me. But indeed you are right about the fruit tree analogy Advaita DasJi. How wonderful Iis this special bhakti tree. Its leaves and bark and even roots are so delicious! How delicious must the mango be then....I cant even imagine!

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  28. Yes, well the proof of the mango lies in the eating. mukaswadana vat - no words can describe it. Thank u so much for your appreciation.

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