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Sunday, June 06, 2010

More on the fall issue and some other questions


Bhakta: "What about the mad elephant offence? It is said to destroy the devotional creeper completely."

Advaitadas: "There are many so called ex devotees who hate us, they left us 30 years ago or so, and if you read their blogs and their forum-posts they cannot stop speaking about us, be it negatively, after such a very long time. That is not just because Kṛṣṇa-consciousness is such a deep experience psychologically [rising at 4, cold shower, kirtan etc.] but also because it is a profoundly spiritual truth and bliss. nehābhikrama nāśo'sti pratyavāyo na vidyate [BG 2.40] - There is no loss and diminution on this path. When Kṛṣṇadās Kavirāja speaks of uprooting the creeper of devotion through Vaiṣṇava aparādha he speaks of future devotional service, not of the past because that stands forever."

Bhakta: "You say we did not fall from the spiritual world, but even Śrī Caitanya says 'patitaṁ māṁ viṣame bhavāmbudhau' I have fallen in the material ocean'.

Advaitadas: "Devotional humility is one thing, philosophical truths another one. Secondly, 'fallen' does not mean we fell down from the spiritual world - for example, in caste-Hinduism outcastes are called adhama or patita, fallen, but it is not that they were brahmins before, like Rupa and Sanatana, who fell from their brahmin caste by eating Muslim-food, no, they were born fallen. It is not that the fallen souls were one time up there and then became fallen. There is no time factor to being fallen in this case. All this is covered [counteracted] by the statement anādi bahirmukha in the Caitanya Caritāmṛta - our disinclination towards God is beginningless."

Bhakta: 'I have heard that the spiritual sky is only available through prema, but I read in your blog of September 19, 2009 that there are other motives too."

Advaitadas: 'Look at Bhakti Rasāmṛta Sindhu (1.2.55-57) :

atra tyājyatayaivokta muktih panca vidhāpi cet |
sālokyādis tathāpy atra bhaktyā nātivirudhyate ||55||

"Though all the five forms of mukti have been stated here as to be discarded (by a pure devotee), yet the first four, sālokya-sāṛṣṭi-sāmīpya and sārūpya are not altogether incompatible with Bhakti."

sukhaiśvaryottarā seyaṁ prema-sevottarety api |
sālokyādir dvidhā tatra nādyā sevā-juṣaṁ matā ||56||

"Sālokya-sāṛṣṭi-sāmīpya and sarūpya muktis are of two kinds: firstly, as grandeur-and-pleasure-giving to the individual, i.e. mukti in which the individual desires his personal pleasures from the grandeur and wealth, and secondly mukti in which Prema-sevā dominates, i.e. in which the dominant desire is to serve the Lord for His delight. But the first of these two aspects of mukti is not welcome to those who are devoted to the service of the Lord, i.e. they do not seek personal pleasures from the grandeur and wealth of the first four forms of mukti."

kintu premaika-mādhurya-juṣa ekāntino harau |
naivāngīkurvate jātu muktiṁ panca-vidhām api ||

"But devotees solely attached to the Lord who relish the sweetness of prema never accept the five types of liberation at all (even premottara)."

This is also stated in SB 3.29.13 and 9.4.67. This also shows that all the śāstrik verses of someone returning from Vaikuṇṭha after enjoying there does not indicate fall because pure devotion has never been there and it is typical for enjoying the kingdom of God without God. Apart from this, such statements refer to temporarily attaining the Vaikuṇṭha within the mahat tattva. (See the end of my blog of September 19, 2009) These persons do not become envious of Kṛṣṇa and do not come down here to imitate Him at all."

Some other questions -

Bhakta: 'Why nitya siddhas like the Pāṇḍavas have to suffer?"

Advaitadas: Śrī Rūpa Goswāmī gives a definition of the siddha in Bhakti Rasāmṛta Sindhu: avijñātākhila kleśa sadā kṛṣṇāśrita kriyā - "A siddha does not know any suffering- he is always under Kṛṣṇa's shelter."

The Pāṇḍavas and the narrators of their adventures teach us things through their suffering - the virtue of forbearance, the saving grace of God, the ultimate victory of truth, etc."

Bhakta: "Does marriage solve a sādhaka's sexual problems?"

Advaitadas: "Sexual indulgence in the gṛhastha āśram does not free one from sex desire, only offenseless harināma and Guru-krpā do so. Marriage is an emergency case, to keep a devotee from falling into deeper sin of unmarried sex. Śrī Narottam sings - gṛhe va bonete thāko sadā haribolo ḍāko "Whether in the woods [renounced] or at home, always chant the name of Hari!"

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