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Tuesday, June 05, 2007

Meating the Goswāmīs

This is an excerpt from a thread about meat-eating that appeared on radhesyamadhama, but which is now deleted by the moderators.

Posted by: nitaidas May 28 2007, 06:21 AM
QUOTE (advaitadas @ May 28 2007, 02:28 AM)
"My 2 cents - no Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava ācārya ate meat, no rank and file Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava ever ate meat, no Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava śāstra prescribes or endorses meat offerings, my Guru was a vegetarian from birth to the grave, and refused to give even harināma to candidates who ate even fish (very common in Bengal). I myself became a vegetarian in 1976, long before I converted to Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism, and it was for elevation of my consciousness, not necessarily out of compassion, that I did it. As for meat in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa - that's nothing compared to the Brahma Vaivarta Purāṇa, where there are multiple descriptions of the Vrajavāsīs eating meat. However, my Guru taught me 'śāstraṁ bhāgavataṁ pramāṇam amalam' - 'The Bhāgavat Purāṇa is the spotless authority'. And there's not a fiber of meat in there...... "

Nitāi Dās responded:

"I'd like to know how Advaita Das got to be omniscient. How can he be so categorically sure of himself? "No Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava acarya ate meat." How does he know this? We know very little about the early lives of the Gosvāmins. We aren't even told that they were married or who their wives were or whether they had children. Isn't it quite likely that they were married? Because that was the common practice among brahmins those days. When they were ministers at the court of Hussein Shah it is also very likely that they were invited to dinners in which they ate meat. Moreover as typical Bengalis they probably ate fish on their own. No Bengali meal is complete without at least the flavor of fish. As for Kṛṣṇa and Balarāma they probably ate meat regularly. They were kṣatriyas after all. But even as vaiśyas living in a vaiśya community they probably ate meat. Gopāla means cow-keeper or cowherder not cow-protector. I would be completely surprised to find out that the gopas did not eat meat. What cowherding community does not eat meat today?"

Advaitadas:

"Revered Nitāi, I dont claim to be omniscient but I cannot find any account of any Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇava ācārya eating meat DURING THEIR TENURE AS ĀCĀRYA. My Guru also told me that Rūpa and Sanātan lost their caste because of their pūrbāśrama's poor diet. We are of course speaking of their tenure as ācārya. As for Kṛṣṇa-Balarām - I am not going to copy and paste whole paragraphs from Kṛṣṇa Bhāvanāmṛta, Govinda Līlāmṛta et al to show what They were eating, surely there were no hamburgers on the menu. If there were then please quote."

(I wish to add now to the last challenge of Nitāi "What cowherding community does not eat meat today?" that Braja's cowherders are pure vegetarian now, so what to speak of in the past?)

Nitai Das:

"The fact that as Advaita Das has suggested these elements have been excluded from CV works like the Govinda Līlāmṛta or the Cc (Caitanya-caritāmṛta) should give us pause and make us wonder about the ways in which CV has changed the very tradition it claims to be upholding. I suspect that there were some major changes in the attitudes and practices of Hindus when the Muslims invaded and that Hindu codes were altered and more vigorously enforced in the society that Mahāprabhu and the Gosvāmins inherited. It is not an original suggestion. Others students of Indian history have suggested the idea before me. "

Advaitadas:

"Students of Indian history have no access to Kṛṣṇa's nitya līlā and are not entitled to speculate on the ācāryas' motives to 'falsify history', which is an absurd accusation, because it drags the ācāryas' revelation of the transcendental world to a mundane plane. Otherwise, on the social plane, these students may well be right. And has Vyāsa, like Kṛṣṇadās Kaviraja 4500 years later, also conveniently blotted out any mentioning of Kṛṣṇa eating meat in the 3,900 verses of the tenth Canto of the Bhāgavata?"

Nitai Das:

"You make a good point, Śrī Advaita Das. This idea of "during their tenure" is an interesting one. It almost sounds like they were professors at some university or college. But deciding when their tenure began is somewhat arbitrary. What if their tenure began earlier and their eating meat was very much part of it. It certainly stopped them from thinking themselves superior to others because of their high caste or the purity of their practices. As far as I can tell their attitudes were the model attitudes of Caitanya Vaiṣṇavas. Maybe would be better if we who think so highly of ourselves as CV all go out and eat a good steak. Then we would have no reason to think of ourselves as superior to others. That is IMHO the greatest blow to higher consciousness, not eating meat. I don't think we will be judged by the contents of our stomachs, but by the contents of our hearts. If our stomachs are full of puris and khir, but our hearts are full of disgust for other people because they eat meat or whatever, I don't think it would bode well for us with Kṛṣṇa.............
I sometimes wonder if on occasion, Sanātana didn't sit back against one of those trees and say to himself: I wish I had a nice chunk of beef right now like I used to back home. All I have now are these dry roti and all my Thākur does is complain that there is no salt!"

Nitāi Dās further dismissed my quotation of the Gītā's patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyam as 'incomplete', as he believed it was just a token list of items that does not necessarily exclude non-veg food. I replied that to eat meat to become humble is an absurd practise. Why not be a humble vegetarian? Is that so hard? Madanmohan Das later reacted by quoting various translations of SB 11.21.29-30 -


te me matam avijnāya paroksaṁ viṣayātmakāh
hiṁsāyāṁ yadi rāgah syād yajna eva na codinā
hiṁsā-vihārā hyālabdhaih paśubhih sva-sukhecchayā
yajante devatā yajnaih pitr-bhūta-patin khalāh


(I will just key in the Gita Press translation here, which I trust the most.) Kṛṣṇa says: "Not knowing My opinion, which is not quite apparent, and which is to the effect that if one has a passion for destruction of life, it should be restricted to sacrificial performances only, and that there is no scriptural ordinance making it obligatory on us - those wicked men indulging in destruction of life as a pastime and with their mind set on the pleasures of sense worship the gods as well as the manes and the rulers of evil spirits through sacrificial performances carried on by means of animals slaughtered with the desire of gratifying themselves."

I wish to add two more quotations:
1. SB 1.17.38, where Kali is allocated the four places of dyūtam (gambling) pāṇam (drinking liquor), striyaḥ (sex with women other than the wife) and śūna (prāṇī-vadha, according to Viśvanātha Cakravartīpāda - 'killing living beings')
And 2) the story of Mṛgāri, the cruel hunter, who was converted by Nārada Muni, to the extent that he even protected ants on the path from being stepped on, which is in the center of Caitanya Caritāmṛta, showing that ahiṁsā is a central item of Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism. As for Nitāi's remark of Sanātan craving the beef and the ācāryas' 'conspiracy' to blot out meat-eating from śāstra, it is not the first time that the greatest experts in the Gosvāmīs books have shown such horrid contempt of these same Gosvāmīs. A number of 'scholars', Vaiṣṇava, and non-Vaiṣṇava, have preceded him in this. Fortunately not every scholar is like that, but any one is one too many.

I have backed up a large part of this thread in txt.-format, for reference. Its too large to blog here, but it can be obtained from me by e-mail.

46 comments:

  1. I received three private comments on this blog, and since they are private I wont name the
    commentators, just number them.

    # 1: Radhe!!!I am utterly shocked about Nitai das. How can he be favorable to eating meat?
    RIDICULOUS! I cant believe what i just read. Has he gone bongers?

    # 2: Advaita-ji
    Radhe Radhe!
    In reference to your recent blog - being rather blunt - what the hell is his problem? This is not the first time I've seen this argument from Nitai... why is he constantly trying to take out your average GV
    practitioner at the knees? He seems obsessed with trying to cut our tenants of faith out from beneath us...
    Bully for you for standing up to him.

    # 3: Advaitadas: "Students of Indian history have no access to Krishna's nitya lila and are not entitled to speculate on the acaryas motives to 'falsify history', which is an absurd accusation, because it drags the acaryas' revelation of the transcendental world to a mundane plane. Otherwise, on the social plane, these students may well be right. And has Vyasa, like Krishnadas Kaviraja 4500 years later, also conveniently blotted out any mentioning of Krishna eating meat in the 3,900 verses of the tenth Canto of Bhagavata?"

    GREAT ANSWER!

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  2. Well, I have to admit being very surprised at Nitai's "intellectual" outlook on Gaudiya Vaishnavism, but I have seen previous examples of this before (such as the "sane Vaishnavism" topic on GD) so I am not that surprised. However, I was particularly put off by the comment about Sanatana Gosvami wishing for beef steak. I find it hard to understand how a person who enviably spends so much time absorbed in Gosvami literatures for the purposes of translation can contemplate these issues and bring them to a mundane level. But, each to their own, I feel I understand why it happens.

    However, I agree with the essence of what Nitai is saying: an indictment against hypocrisy. I used to eat meat but I gave it up in 1993 (about 5 years before I came to GV) and sometimes I do feel that I have developed a superiority complex as a result. Such complexes are completely against the principle of trinad api sunicena as advocated by Sriman Mahaprabhu, and pride goeth before a fall. So in this way I can understand what Nitai means in that it is better to "honestly" eat meat and not be judgemental against meat-eaters than to have a bellyful of puris and khir and sneer down at the lowly meat-eaters and harbour so many other vices in the heart.

    But of course, I completely disagree with Nitai's idea that meat-eating is necessary in accelerating that process and of course I would never advocate that meat should be eaten. If it is attainment of humility that is the problem here, eating meat is not going to solve it and humility can be acquired or learned by other means such as the grace of Sri Guru or contemplation of the wonderful gifts that Mahaprabhu has given us.

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  3. I should also add that, in fairness, various other issues that Nitai brings up do deserve some due thought and rumination. Stuff like the superfluous (?) influence of the caste system on Gaudiya Vaishnavism, whether GV is necessarily intertwined with India or Indian culture, just Nitai's general ideas to make GV more 'palatable' for Westerners.

    Apart from the fact that GV is not necessarily an object that ought to be dished up according to the order of the consumer, I can't help seeing the reason behind some of Nitai's proposals. However, I think that Gaudiya Vaishnavism is still too much of a young tradition for any major revolutions to happen, as several features of GV seem to still require establishment and strong grounding in the Indian philosophical field.

    Take Christianity for example: Catholicism was the "established" form before too many deviations and corruptions started creeping in and sufficient discontent arose for the Reformation to take place. The idea is that the revolution needed to take place in order for Christianity to survive, though it is academic which of the two branches (and their sub-branches, sub-sub-branches and twigs) is the most "successful" etc. So if similar revolutions were to take place in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, something would have to be seriously wrong with it for the reformations to take place. This is what Sri Bhaktisiddhanta tried to do which was based on his perceptions of things that were going wrong with GV during his time, and unfortunately we can see that some of those arguments are still continuing endlessly. One could still argue (and may be justified in doing so) that this "revolution" was necessary as it indirectly led to the flowering of GV all over the world.

    But regarding Nitai's ideas, my basic point is that GV is still too young a tradition for such far-reaching changes to take place as it is not sufficiently established whether such changes are necessary. The essence of Nitai's ideas (to make GV palatable, or rather, applicable/relevant for the Westerner) is admirable but ought to be left on the shelf to be considered at a time far in the future when such things may be necessary to contemplate, in my humble opinion.

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  4. Gaura - I am all for an indictment against hypocrisy and I find the arrogant attitude of moral superiority of vegetarians also wrong, I have blogged about that before ("Ignorance IS an excuse", April 19 2006), and I am not against a debate about western presentation of Gaudiya Vaishnavism either, though it should be on terms of the supplier, not the consumer, as you rightly say (I blogged on that too, "Adjustments", June 25, 2006),
    but I am appalled about the casual and utterly disrespectful attitude some scholars have towards the Six Gosvamis, in whose books they are supposed to be the greatest expert - that was the purpose of this blog.
    If it wasnt for that I wouldnt have blogged this. Otherwise we go back to the lengthy discussion about dressing Krishna in bluejeans, calling Him 'Blacky'
    and Radha 'Starry' (with miniskirt and tight T shirt) and all that stuff. It is again particularly the heavyweight intellectuals that propose such absurdities.
    The GV reformation had already taken place (Bhaktivinod, Bhaktisiddhanta) before GV even came to the west in the first place, and it was a protestant (ACBS) who spread it all over the world. You can already become a brahmin by quality, but for some it is still not enough and they want to serve beef-prasad.
    That is catering to the consumer, and going that far will not yield any following. ACBS with his modest protestantism made thousands of followers, Nitai and his kind made none, and he's had 30 years time to do it. (With this comment I dont claim to support the IGM protestantism, I am just arguing from the angle of Nitai and his allies)

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  5. I myself wonder when was the last time Nitai has been to India for association with the tradition he so thinks he has the 'inside skinny' on...

    My feeling is he is locked up in his room surrounded by all his books, translations and mind far too much and needs to go take a dip in Radha Kunda and do some simple seva in Braja.

    namaskar

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  6. There is philosophying for the sake of philosophying, which sometimes equals intellectual narcisicm. And there is philosphying to find truth. We find truth through sraddha. Step one.

    It is possible to start studying our Goswamis' literature without having develloped suficient faith. With a scientific mind you'll start finding alterior motives in every statement. 'Sanatana said this, but might as well could have meant that. Considering the time, the circumstances (blablabla), his vegetarianism can be doubted.' or 'On the basis of The Da Vinci Code I put serious questionmarks about the marital status of our acaryas'.

    Sraddha is feeling, and the process is one of develloping finer feeling and reliable taste.

    Not to judge any individual case, but in general I think to many people start studying our books to early independently. We forget to study under the direct guidance of Guru. We are more like... 'no I am the master of Sanskrit and now I do not need my illiterate Guru anymore.'

    But my advice is..... stay connected. And then some hobby-like philosophying on the side is okay. But without Guru it can easily become (didn't want to use the word) a little offensive or be taken the wrong way (as an attack).

    But I also think we should be able to question and be critical. In that sense I will not judge some of those scholars. I do dislike the tone though.

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  7. I guess what counts for not-meat-eating, also counts for knowing Sanskrit. But should we all stop learning Sanskrit because it can cause pride in some ? The whole argument put up, is a non-argument.

    Let us stop everything good. Let us rebel completely against everything so that pride will not get a chance. Let us become complete losers. Better even, let us become prideless drug abusing criminals in jail with our prides smashed in the process. Better then a proud vegetarian brahmin...

    But we can start in small steps... and order chicken.

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  8. "But we can start in small steps... and order chicken."

    Is that a joke?

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  9. Pride in his empiric knowledge clouds Nitaidas' mind and throws him into the embrace of the ghosts of kama-krodha-lobha. In his imagination Sanatana Goswami is not happy in his bhajan. Nitaidas cannot even see the real heart of Sanatana.

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  10. We must learn Sanskrit for the right reasons. I have to admit that when I joined GD I was seriously impressed with the level of Sanskrit knowledge of some of the main contributors, Advaitaji included. And I wanted to learn it too so I could become a pundit and show off. Nowadays I realise my folly and I would like to learn Sanskrit so that I can understand the text without having to rely on translations that may be inaccurate, and also to learn the joy of the puns and jokes in the shastric literatures. So maybe this is the right reason for wanting to learn, I am not sure.

    I liked Anuradha didi's sarcastic remarks about the Da Vinci code and all, hahaha, I nearly laughed my head off at what we could suggest about our Acharyas based on any flimsy idea. At least nobody has any need to speculate about Mahaprabhu's marital status - His life was an open book, literally.

    At the same time I agree with the need to think somewhat rationally about certain issues. I have to admit that my BSc. Psychology studies have forced me to contemplate and re-evaluate a lot of my own feelings for GV and, as a result, I no longer believe in a lot of things that may be considered dogmatic. There is something of a need to indulge in some critical thinking if only to examine the roots of our own faith and to see how well-grounded we are. Is our faith blind or do we actually have something to base it on? So in that sense I can empathise with Nitai's thoughts on reformation or whatever he may like to call it - I believe that such thinking will occur organically throughout the GV sampradaya over time anyway - but again of course I think his ideas are too extreme. I don't think meat-eating could ever be reconciled with the principles of GV.

    One thing occurred to me yesterday: Nitai is not some Johnny-come-lately with some pie-in-the-sky ideas. He is a recognised scholar with a knowledge of Sanskrit to die for, and is also well acquainted with the exegesis of GV as well as having his own long and intimate history with GV. He knows full well the ramifications of his thoughts and, as such, I cannot help but think that Nitai knew that his ideas were provocative and that it was his intention to provoke. So it's really a matter of not allowing oneself to be provoked and to maintain an equilibrium.

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  11. Whether it was a provocation or he was serious, he harvested the same result - universal condemnation. Equilibrium is not suited here, because it is an aparadha in either case. There are no two sides of a coin here.

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  12. Advaita,

    Of course I am not recommending eating chicken. It would be like recommending a destructive path to get rid of pride.
    I wanted to show the unsoundness of such reasoning.

    Pride is only eliminated one way. Surrender to Guru. Otherwise pride will remain and it will find any excuse to survive.

    Our path is constructive, destroying anarthas along the side.

    And somehow or other I can't help to find a pattern in what is happening in some western Sanskrit scholars. Some (everybody will know who) like to shock/provocate us with their new insights as a result of their learning.
    Sometimes it is nice to be provoked, but too often certain individuals are crossing a line, that I am sure their respected Teachers would not approve off.

    In some cases I am wondering ... where is the love ? where is the compassion ? where is the humility ? When learning does not go hand in hand with some of these qualities, it is useless ?

    Our Scriptures should not be studied with a scientific mind if you want Their fruit... prema. the very study of Them is yoga. Before you open any GV book you should chant and pray for proper understanding. It is a form of receiving knowledge, not working your way up through arguments and flipping words. Or being really smart.
    We have pure Vaisnavas in our line practically illiterate. Their disciples were sometimes scholars, but remained under their guidance.
    Why ? Because these Vainavas were the very thing the Scriptures are talking about. Embodiements of Love.

    The basics of our Philosophy are indeed still very simple.
    The finer feeling though is subtle and hard to describe, making certain parts of our Scriptures hard to understand. But for the purehearted these are never braincrackers.

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  13. Advaitadas: "As for meat in the Vishnu Purana - that's nothing compared to the Brahma Vaivarta Purana, where there are multiple descriptions of the Vrajavasis eating meat".

    Please forgive me if will disagree with the majority one again, and no way I am trying to translate Nitai, (as a matter of fact he is too bright for my little box), but I really see nothing wrong in Nitai’s arguments in here. I mean Advaitadas-ji already gave the information above, saying that “Brahma Vaivarta Purana, have multiple descriptions of the Vrajavasis eating meat.”

    Therefore, based on the above premise, why all these alarm when Nitai is basically suggesting a correction on what he believes to be a flaw in our tradition, like he puts it: “I don't think we will be judged by the contents of our stomachs, but by the contents of our hearts. If our stomachs are full of puris and khir, but our hearts are full of disgust for other people because they eat meat or whatever, I don't think it would bode well for us with Krsna.............´

    Moreover, in his next quote, Nitai seems (in my opinion) more like stressing his ideas, rather than maliciously suggesting it as an actual fact, but yes one could say he was bit sarcastic:

    Nitai: “I sometimes wonder if on occasion, Sanatana didn't sit back against one of those trees and say to himself: I wish I had a nice chunk of beef right now like I used to back home. All I have now are these dry roti and all my Thakur does is complain that there is no salt!"

    I really believe in the fact that after surrendering at the lotus feet of Mahaprabhu, Sanatana Gosvami would never look back on his life, nevertheless, meat-eating seems to remain as a “stain” on his pass, which floats here and there, accordingly as Advaita Das-ji quotes: “My Guru also told me that Rupa and Sanatan lost their caste because of their purvAzrama's poor diet.”

    Here once again, Nitai is simply calling our attention to the false conceptions based on “pure diet”:

    Nitai Das: "You make a good point, Sri Advaita Das. This idea of "during their tenure" is an interesting one. It almost sounds like they were professors at some university or college. But deciding when their tenure began is somewhat arbitrary. What if their tenure began earlier and their eating meat was very much part of it. It certainly stopped them from thinking themselves superior to others because of their high caste or the purity of their practices. As far as I can tell their attitudes were the model attitudes of Caitanya Vaisnavas. Maybe would be better if we who think so highly of ourselves as CV all go out and eat a good steak. Then we would have no reason to think of ourselves as superior to others".

    My 2 cents here does not advocate meat-eating, however, if you still think that I am advocating it; you certainly missed the buzz.

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  14. Harisaran,

    1) About the Brahma Vaivarta Purana, remember that there are 18 Puranas divided in 3 modes of nature, the Brahma Puranas being in the mode of passion. That is why we see extremely explicit sexual material in the Brahma Vaivarta Purana as well as extreme violence. The BVP is not recommended reading for Gaudiya Vaishnavas, rather the Bhagavat Purana is. It is called the amala purana, the spotless Purana, meaning that the BVP is not a spotless Purana. Besides, I remember that the only description I read there about meat was that it was hanging on the line when Uddhava entered Vraja to give his message to the gopis. I have recently found an e-copy of the BVV, I will look for the word 'meat' there, see what comes out.
    2. My Guru literally said 'ora tadera anna kheyechen, tai' "They (Rupa-Sanatan) had eaten their (the Muslims') grains, hence (they lost their caste)." He didnt say that they ate meat. Whether or not they did is for anyone to speculate about, it is not recorded.
    3. Whether Nitai's statements were actual fact or a suggestion, the remarks about Sanatan Gosvami were clearly aparadha, plus his insinuation that there is a big conspiracy from Vyas to Visvanatha, to erase all meat-eating from Krishna lila is both absurd and offensive.

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  15. My search machine found 0 entries for the word 'meat' in Brahma Vaivarta Purana, though this
    e-copy I have may not be the whole book and its translation is also not complete. It has 722 pages though, so it should be most or all of it. What is mentioned under 'mamsa' is this:

    4.3.71
    go-mamsa-vin-mutra-samam
    tambulam ca phalam jalam
    pumsam abhaksyam suddhayam
    odanasyapi ka katha

    gah - of a cow; mamsa - flesh; vit - stool; mutra - urine; samam - equal; tambulam - betelnuts; ca - and; phalam - fruit; jalam - water; pumsam - of people; abhaksyam - not to be eaten; suddhayam - pure; odanasya - boiled rice; api - even; ka - what?; katha - topics.

    "On a pure Janmastami (not mixed with the saptami) one should not eat even fruit or betelnuts or even drink water. Eating these is like eating stool or cow's flesh or like drinking urine What then can be said of eating rice?"

    So hereby I provisionally retract my earlier statement that there are multiple statements of the Vrajabasis eating meat in the BVP. Provisionally, because they still may be there, since the statement of Uddhava's vision was also not there in my e-copy.

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  16. "Maybe would be better if we who think so highly of ourselves as CV all go out and eat a good steak. Then we would have no reason to think of ourselves as superior to others"

    Okay, this is clearly sarcasm and he doesn't seriously advocate meat-eating here. He tries to make a point that ACBSP also made.... "Pigeons are vegetarians too, yet they hold no pride over it".

    The difference is clear though... the tone. The Goswamis (as we have read about Sanatana) should not be dragged into imagery too prove our point. Use pigeons or whatever.

    Secondly, we as bhaktas should never forget that eating-meat for us remains an act of violence with effects on our consciousness. Better be a proud fool than a violent buster.

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  17. Advaitadas, you are such a coward and a phoney. If anyone can be accused of insulting the Goswamis, it is only you. You don't even know what they say. You lack the ability to read them and when you dare to translate them anyway you mistranslate them and misrepresent them. I can't tell you how many times I had to correct your mistranslations of the Gosvamins in Karunamayi's book on his gurudev. Yet, somehow you get away with the pretense that you are defending the Gosvamins from evil scholars like me and Jagat, people who have actually taken the time to learn the languages they wrote in and who have read them. You should be ashamed of yourself, but I know you won't be because you feel so arrogantly confident that you know the truth that nothing can shake you from it. Your sort of Vaisnava, unwilling to think of the present or the future, is certainly the kind that will be responsible for killing Caitanya Vaisnavism in the present age. If Caitanya Vaisnavism really needs people like you to survive, I for one hope it dies, for surely it will then be blind and lame. Fortunately, I don't think it does which is why I choose to think along different lines. I don't think vegetarianism, the caste system, or the silly yuga system, to name just a few things, are necessary for CV. If they are, CV is doomed to be the possession of cranks like you and will die with them.

    iti zeSaH

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  18. Nitaidas,
    1. Explain why I am a coward (If I am not afraid to stand up to you and your kind)
    2. Explain why I am a phony
    3. You and Jagat gave up the path of bhakti (sitting at the feet of a Guru) and turned to beefeating professors in the west, who are total bahirmukhas and learned a material, ancient South-Indian language, and you think you can understand the Gosvamis in this way? With the result you are insulting them left and right, slanderously accusing them of craving such a base thing like beef and conspiring to forge the shastras (as in 'AtmavAn manyate jagat)? How dare you even show your face on my site? I only posted your comment to show the readers what a malicious, totally misled and pathetic offender you are.

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  19. Advaitadas, you are seriously tetched. You are a coward, because you wait until I go away and then make all sorts of accusations about me. You are a coward because you write a long essay on the inauthenticity of IGM and insist on publishing it anonymously. You are a phony because you pretend that you are so pure and yet you run off around the world after women. You are a phony because you pretend to defend the Goswamis when you don't really know what they have to say.

    How dare you accuse me of giving up the path of bhakti. You know nothing of my sadhana. And I guess I can add to coward and phony the title idiot, because I never accused Sanatana of dreaming of meat. I said I sometimes wondered if he did. That is more about my wonderings than about what he really did. In my book, it would only humanize him and make him more appealing as someone who struggled in the beginning like we all do. I never claimed that he did it or that I believed he did it. That is your fantasy. As for forging the sastras, that is also your invention. They did what I am proposing, interpreting the scriptures according to their times.

    In short you are a creep, and if the readers of your blog don't know that by now, they are too.

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  20. "I don't think vegetarianism, the caste system, or the silly yuga system, to name just a few things, are necessary for CV. If they are, CV is doomed to be the possession of cranks like you and will die with them."

    I cannot believe you, nitaidas, wrote this...

    Meat-eating is one of the most cruel things here on the planet and so-called scholars like you should understand this.

    Who wants your fucked-up version of CV?

    You are the most arrogant person.

    No, we are certainly not your audience.
    Yes, there are enough wonderful devotees to have sanga with....

    You are so proud of your being able to read and speak and translate Sanskrit....what is the use??

    You are an incredible offender and you keep on insulting others...dragging the Goswamis down to your pityful armchair-scholar-ness....

    Poor.Cheap.Sad!

    Tarun Govinda das

    ReplyDelete
  21. N: Advaitadas, you are seriously tetched. You are a coward, because you wait until I go away and then make all sorts of accusations about me.

    A: That is ridiculous, I didn’t ask you to go on a journey nor did I plan my blog according to your itinerary. I am not afraid of you.

    N: You are a coward because you write a long essay on the inauthenticity of IGM and insist on publishing it anonymously.

    A: Granted.

    N: You are a phony because you pretend that you are so pure and yet you run off around the world after women.

    A: 1. I am unmarried against my will, I am not a sannyasi, and there is no system of arranged marriages in my country, so I have to find a wife myself. What is the harm in that? 2. When did I ever claim to be so pure? Quote me on this. Its only you who is ascribing purity to me.

    N: You are a phony because you pretend to defend the Goswamis when you don't really know what they have to say.

    A: The same might be said about you. Prove it. Enlighten us, O master.

    N: How dare you accuse me of giving up the path of bhakti. You know nothing of my sadhana.

    A: It is sufficient to judge the fruit, not the tree. Heno krsnanama yadi loy bahubara….

    N: And I guess I can add to coward and phony the title idiot, because I never accused Sanatana of dreaming of meat. I said I sometimes wondered if he did. That is more about my wonderings than about what he really did.

    A: It makes no difference at all. It is just plain offensive.

    N: In my book, it would only humanize him and make him more appealing as someone who struggled in the beginning like we all do. I never claimed that he did it or that I believed he did it.

    A: Nonetheless you reaped not only my condemnation but everyone else’s as well, except Harisaran. As usual you think everyone to be wrong and only you right. I consider your and Jagat’s ‘humanising’ the Gosvamis to be offensive. They are the siksa gurus of the entire sampradaya (CC Adi 1.37) and its forbidden to humanise the guru – na martya buddhyasuyeta sarva devamayo guru, martyasaddhi srutam tasya sarvam kunjara saucavat.

    N: That is your fantasy. As for forging the sastras, that is also your invention. They did what I am proposing, interpreting the scriptures according to their times.

    A: I quote you verbatim: “The fact that as Advaita Das has suggested these elements have been excluded from CV works like the Govindalilamrta or the Cc (Caitanya-caritamrta) should give us pause and make us wonder about the ways in which CV has changed the very tradition it claims to be upholding. I suspect that there were some major changes in the attitudes and practices of Hindus when the Muslims invaded and that Hindu codes were altered and more vigorously enforced in the society that Mahaprabhu and the Gosvamins inherited.”

    You overlooked in your theory (‘has changed the tradition it claims to be upholding’ is sheer conspiracy theory) that the purely vegetarian Bhagavata, however old it is – 5000 or 2000 years, was written/revealed before the Muslims came. Now that is a widespread conspiracy, huh?

    N: In short you are a creep, and if the readers of your blog don't know that by now, they are too.

    A: I may be a creep but again, you have to insult all other Vaishnavas as well?

    ReplyDelete
  22. N: It is not bitterness. It is hatred. I hate people like Advaitadas who present CV in such a way that no one with a brain will ever be attracted to it.

    Brain is not the essential substance!
    The heart is....

    ARROGANCE.

    N:I don't really care what any of you think of me. Why should I care? It doesn't affect me in the least. I will keep doing what I am doing whether any of you are there or not. Whether you buy my books or not matters nothing. You are not my audience.

    ARROGANCE.

    His audience, his books???
    LOL

    N: As for sanga, who is there now to have sanga with?

    Unbelievable....ARROGANCE....

    To be found on Radhe Shyam Dham...

    ReplyDelete
  23. I was hoping to be keep silent but ….

    I am amazed at how some of you here talk that way.

    Firstly, NITAI DAS , I think YOU ARE THE IDIOT. (I have never used that word in public at all, but YOU DESERVE IT).

    You are not a provocateur you are OFFENSIVE. How can you even think of Sanatan Goswami thinking of beef? How can you even think of those wild ideas even after more than 30 years “immersed “ in your sadhana? The point of GVism is the Guru : if the guru says to be vegetarian is helpful in raising consciousness we follow him—otherwise be guru of YOURSELF.

    You talk like you ARE INTELLIGENT. To tell you the truth I was wondering why so called bhaktas, sadhaks (like YOU) would even go to university to study Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Why, is it because you wont be accepted in a PHD program if you go into a different discipline. EGO TRIP, yeah ! I did not do GVism in university because I know it will CORRUPT MY FAITH, and for that that makes me intelligent.

    I agree with Tarunji, WHO CARES if CV can’t attract the intelligentsia class. FAITH AND LOVE CAN NOT BE LEARNED IN THE UNIVERSITY AND IT CAN NOT BE MEASURED BY IQ.

    MOST MATERIALLY INTELLIGENT PEOPLE DO NOT BELIEVE IN A GOD. They want physical proof, the empiric formula. BUT KRISHNA IS OUTSIDE NATURAL LAW, SO THEY WILL NEVER FIND HIM.

    I have met many very intelligent people including my former husband who has a very high IQ – a MENSA member who is now doing Doctorate in Business, and they are puff up, independent, think that this world is the only realm. For them God to be real He has to be reduced to an empiric level. They don’t know that LOVE FOR GOD comes from the heart. Faith is like “lovemaking”. You may read a lot of manuals on the steps, method, style on how to do it but at the end of the day it is how and what you are feeling that will take you through it.

    Well, sell your books – you have a story but surely it does not have the flavour/taste because as you say we are not your target market.

    Nitai das I can’t believe you have gone THAT LOW to even comment on Advaita das' personal affair. I think you are the COWARD.

    When my kids were young I gave them some strong tapping if they were going beyond limit. And that applies to you too.

    Chant Hare Krishna

    ReplyDelete
  24. nitaidas,
    you can call me whatever you want....

    I am so happy that I found MY way to GV.

    I am so happy that I am not YOUR audience.

    About Srila Sanatana Goswami, thinking of meat-eating...

    This is just horrible...
    And in his arrogance, he wants to sell it in the way that he wants to make eternal companions of Mahaprabhu more "available"....more "human", so that losers can drag him down into their mud-pool...

    There lies the evil crux...

    Who does he think he is?
    To even think such thoughts proves his level of devotion....

    And how can vegetarianism NOT be necessary?
    How to develop love by taking actively part in VIOLENCE?
    Foolish kindergarden-stuff.

    And then cover-up, strawmen-arguments like:
    Better a nice meat-eater than an evil vegetarian...

    NOT THE POINT HERE!!!!

    People who eat meat will never ever understand Sri Sri Yugal Kishore...

    To be able to gain entrance in Their lila, one has to be pure....

    With rotting cow-meat in your stomach, digested by whiskey!!!!

    DREAM ON!!!!!!!!

    I am still shocked.

    ReplyDelete
  25. I think this discussion needs to be stopped. Personal attacks aren't necessary. I do not approve of Advaita namecalling Jagadananda (as done in the past), neither anyone namecalling Advaita.

    Nitai has strong opinions and a style of writting and imagery that does not go well with this audience. What is considered offensive by us, is considered thinking aloud by the other.

    Indeed we are not to judge on anyones relation with his Guru and personal bhajan, since it is personal and confidential. Sorry, if I was also part of that.
    I guess it was a reaction on things I've read in the past about my beloved gurus from Nitai's writting that triggered it. Some hidden anger. But that should not make me commit the same mistake.

    Peace, love and happiness

    ReplyDelete
  26. Tarun said to Nitaidas:
    -----
    Who wants your fucked-up version of CV?
    You are the most arrogant person.
    -----

    Tarun this is perfect.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Besides all the contradictory opinions on this Earthquake-like-Topic, the good result of the “aftershock” effects was that Advaitadas was liberal enough to have Nitai freely speak and expose his ideas; which unfortunately, most of the time it is misunderstood by the majority.

    As for me, Nitaidas is a gentleman, who has been dedicating his life into the studies of Vaishnavism, but however ironically, the very community of his heart, badly misinterprets his thoughts; his works; his wonders…

    On the other hand, Advaitadas’s moderation in the dialog process was a good example of “tolerance” and somehow it start showing the positive signs (the wind blowing) of the progressive march towards improvements of the communication process among Vaishnavas at online communities. Where one can at least express himself, although under criticism, but not necessarily having to go through a moderate team ruled by one or few individuals, who simply does not necessary have the ideal frame of mind that takes to lead a broadminded, independent, “self sufficient” Online Forum.

    I wish I have that frame of mind; in fact I am in search of it.

    Thus, although it may be a difficult process, nevertheless, if the term Vaishnava is used to identify the community then it is almost mandatory that it's “policies” goes through a constant reevaluation, otherwise the dynamics of Caitanya Vaishnavism will evaporates together with it.

    Therefore, very well Advaitadas-ji, thanks for the -modest- initial steps for an active broadminded communication in here and certainly, many thanks to Nitaidas-ji for once again trying to shake our faith and perhaps our misconceptions.

    Aloha!

    ReplyDelete
  28. Hallelujah, Anuradha! Finally a sane voice in this grotesque circus.

    I just wanted to state humbly for the record that I do not condemn Nitai das; I accept that what he says may be taken as offensive by others but he deserves a right to speak. Remember, Nitaiji did not speak here, it was Advaitaji who posted a deleted discussion here on his blog which gave it far more attention than it initially received. I also think it is unreasonable to banish Nitai ("how dare you show your face here", etc) when we are supposed to be having a discussion on his statements and he is not allowed to explain himself?

    Sorry, but I frankly think you are all acting like children. What to speak of a complete travesty of Vaishnava behaviour. If only I oculd open my mouth and tell you how ridiculous this all is. Yesterday I had a clear idea of what had gone on, who had said what, etc., and today it has all been made worse and it will be extremely difficult to sift through the details. As if anyone should give their time and attention to this topic anyway. So I agree with Anuradha didi, this discussion ought to be stopped before it escalates into a humungous heap of aparadha. You may not be able to see it, but it is piling up by the minute. Jai Gaur Radhe-Shyam.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Gaura, I would not have banished Nitai, and he isnt now either. 'How dare you show your face' was written
    in a certain context and mood. Emotions ran very high. Nobody is banished here, but individual comments may be banished. I may block comments by my best friends and pass comments by my worst enemies, it depends on the comment, case by case. As for 'childish behaviour', I dont agree with you and Anuradha about this at all - I for one will not lay low and say nothing when the Gosvamis are insulted, even if it is done by an ignorant fool who doesnt understand what impact it has on devotees. Without wanting
    to compare these unnamed arrogant academics with Hitler, I for one will not be a Chamberlain who
    appeases, lays low and says 'love, peace, dont rock the boat'. And the use of strong language is permitted thereby, though I agree there must be a limit. I think some here, including myself,
    have gone to the limit of expression in that respect. With that I do think it is time to move on and close the discussion. Nuff said....

    ReplyDelete
  30. [QUOTE]The kind of sanga available there will merely put you to sleep, not awaken you. [/QUOTE]

    Why be nice to such offenders???

    Actually with these words he is offending Srila Ananta das Babaji Maharaja also.
    He happens to be my Gurudeva, and like Malati (great words!!!) said, ANGER has its place...
    Offending Srila Sanatana Goswami....no sadhu-sanga anywhere, the above quote, all devotees on Advaita´s blog are cranks....

    I stand to my words!

    Although he is constantly ignoring me, still I say that nitaidas´presentation of CV is just a dream...

    He puts himself above the Bhagavata, openly attacks its contents, puts totally absurd thoughts in the minds of eternal parisads....well...enough!!!

    Of course Madhavaji is right, but such attacks CANNOT be tolerated...sorry.

    He may be well-known and all, but someone who doesnt see a difference between killing a cow for food and harvesting a cauliflower for example, after decades of devotional life....how serious can one take such a person?

    I am sick of this westernizing-downwashing approach to CV...

    I for one, received very very advices from my beloved Gurudeva on how to cope with life in the wild west.

    He is very much able to see and to understand how difficult and how essentially different our culture here is from his own.

    Just because one is not able to follow regulations like no meat-eating, no dope and no alcohol, etc...there is no reason to downgrade spiritual life.

    I myself struggle everyday with my senses, but still I see the advantages of a pure life.

    How can a Vaishnava EVER drink alcohol, eat meat, smoke dope and screw around?

    Just in the name of "making CV more available"?
    No thanks.

    Justifying one´s own shortcomings with dragging down eternal parisads to one´s own fanicul standards.....

    Yeah, rock on...

    :crazy

    ReplyDelete
  31. May I add that I do not agree with everybody all the time also. And I do not lay low either when it comes to our acaryas.
    Compare it with our little clash about Bhaktisiddhanta. He is my paramguru. You hold firm critisicm, yet because proper etiquette is observed now based on some respect I am able to profit from some of your realizations as well. Similarly with Jagat. Some respect is there, even towards my paramguru (however little).
    Yet I also spoke out against things I read, that I considered offensive (criticism gone too far).

    I will not become a disciple of anyone cherishing some antipathy against my teachers, yet I believe that respect and friendship is still possible and necessary. Relativities harmonized in the plane of Absolute Love.
    Nitai is a bridge too far for me at the moment. But people are people and can change and alter their opinions very fast. We attack the mIskconception, not the person.
    We all have our own little personalities, some have more fire in them then others. You have fire. And you try to use it in the service of our Advaitacarya. Therefor you are not a creep, nor are your readers.

    But we also have to be reminded to practice restraint. I remember that every doubt I put forward in my Iskcon days was answered with a tirade. It was a greenlight for others to call me a karmi, aparadhi, rascal and so on. The ones that had restraint though, changed their fanatical natures and are mostly still my friends.

    So..... Love, peace and hapiness

    ReplyDelete
  32. What really shocks me for real is the absence of creative topics and thoughts.

    I mean, Nitaidas along dragged the majority of the audience of two sites (VK and RSD) into his world, everyone criticized him, but in reality nothing was accomplished, besides of course, Advaitadas-ji’s exemplar moderation style.

    Other than that the only thing I have witness was the typical frenetic ride on Merry-Going-Around, but nothing new or creative replaced the mutual commotion; which indicates that no one could come out with attractive ideas to replace the primitive collective anger. In fact it seems to be repeating over and over again...

    Therefore, once again, thanks Nitaidas-ji for the creative thoughts and Advaitadas-ji for the excellent moderation.

    Aloha!

    ReplyDelete
  33. "thanks Nitaidas-ji for the creative thoughts"

    Dear Harisaran,

    "creative thoughts"?
    Are you serious?

    What creative thoughts?

    Honestly, what are you expecting?

    Why should WE offer something "new", something
    "creative"?

    Creative like-

    * the Goswamis may have eaten meat
    * vegeterianism is not necessary
    * no difference between killing a cow versus harvesting a vegetable
    * there is no sadhu-sanga available
    * the Bhagavatam is not right
    (see nitaidas elaboration on the myths found in it at RadheShyamDham)
    * .......

    If you call this offensive crap creative...well, congratulations...

    I for one stand still behind my anger, although I may have committed aparadhas, as Madhavaji pointed out.

    But I rather suffer for my strong words instead of accepting statements which are for example offending my Gurudeva ("the sanga there, at Radhakund puts one asleep...".

    I can live nicely without such stupid and childish provocation.

    ReplyDelete
  34. For everyone who thinks killing an animal for food is not violence!!

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1282796533661048967

    ReplyDelete
  35. Radhe Radhe

    This is going to be my last post in this thread.I will never visit this thread again.

    Firstly, who ever said, Nitai das is well known? I have been involved in GV since 1978 (Hansadutta, Kirtananda (Philippines))but I didn't know him until 2002. I also didn't know that he has had anything that made an impact in the GV world.

    I'd say the college drop-out Advaita das had. I regard Advaita das one of the best minds and maybe one of the best hearts of GV sans his erratic personality.

    Also Gaura and Hari Saran das, it is nice to be theoretical with your politically correct advice, but if the person you love got insulted what will you do? I'd say you are a pretender if you take it sitting down with a smile on your face. What would a reasonable person do? Of course if you are a Sadhu Babaji maybe you will act differently. But then again maybe both of you are Sadhu Babajis.

    The fact is we should stop the source of pollution, not the people affected by the polluter. If the polluter did not exist there is no pollution in the first place.

    I'm sorry if this is strongly worded but I just can't stand listening to someone made stupid SUPPOSITIONS ABOUT THE GOSWAMIS, and stupid philosophical revert on the basics of Gvism, even after 30 years with GVism.

    A Guru specifically said we should control our anger, and be like Lord Nityananda who is always in a happy disposition but he also said that if your Guru , the Goswamis and especially the heart of our "belief" is attacked our anger is undertandable. I think that is COMMPON SENSE.

    Ok, I will take Gaura and Madhava's advice now, I'll stop now. Hare Krishna

    ReplyDelete
  36. Sorry, wrong link to the video!!!!!!!

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1282796533661048967&q=earthlings

    ReplyDelete
  37. I am somehow unable to make a working link of this in the comments page. So please copy and paste the address into the address-window of your webbrowser.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Tarunji,

    Can you email the link to me, I want to post it in the vegetarian section of Radhe Shyam Dham.

    Regards,

    jijaji

    ReplyDelete
  39. Radhe!!!

    Again the wrong link...

    Go to Google Videos > type in "Earthlings" > the 1h 35 minute -version!!!

    ReplyDelete
  40. I dont get it. The two links you gave before were both working.....

    ReplyDelete
  41. Nitai das has just gone mad, so much could be said about that. Who is safe in this mad world? Wish him good doctor and good medicine. Be compassionate!

    ReplyDelete
  42. Well, well...

    Dear Madhava, dear Gaurasundara...

    I very much appreciate your being very humble, very shastrical, very politically correct and I mean it!

    But this is totally not the point here. Not at all.

    If you are on that high platform, how nice for you.
    Then there would be no need to participate at all, right?

    The point here is something totally different.

    If someone comes up with totally strange and highly offensive statements about GV, and this someone even is offending Vaishnavas either on the net or en gros at Vraja and Radhakund, then surely it is my right to make a stand.
    Why?

    Imagine someone starts attacking your family: "Your family sucks. I would never hang out with anyone of your family. They are way below my level."

    You sitting around PC and nice and shastrically humble and quiet?
    Well, damn it, ME NOT!

    Maybe for you, Gaurasundara, it is easy...with no Gurudeva.

    I am very low and foolish, not much qualities at all.
    But one: I like my Gurudeva very much. Very much so! Although I am not able to follow his instructions to the core, still he dwells deep inside my heart.

    And if someone OPENLY/PUBLICLY states that
    1. there is no sadhu-sanga available anymore and
    2. the sanga at Radhakunda puts one asleep instead of awaken one,
    then I for my part see a DIRECT attack to my beloved Gurudeva.
    That is my perception and surely I am entitled to that.

    I will never shut up and be nice to such an offensive person...

    What to speak of Sanatana Goswami thinking about eating meat....

    Why did nitaidas even brought his totally offensive thoughts into form, via the Internet, at the chosen places?

    PROVOCATION. USELESSLY!!!

    No need to talk about creative thoughts or discussing such stupid stuff....killing animals is no violence...what a poor and totally sad realization for someone who calls himself a Vaishnava and claims being for decades!

    No need in such a strong case to be politically correct.

    He came to the wrong places with the wrong thoughts.
    Fully knowing the impact of such offensive bullshit!

    Nough now said!

    ReplyDelete
  43. (Tarunji may be addressing Madhava as a reaction to what he said on Radhesyamdham and Vraja-journal. Strictly and factually Madhava did not comment on this blog at all, at least not here on the comments pages of madangopal.blog)

    ReplyDelete
  44. Radhe Radhe!

    I am NOT attacking Madhavaji though.

    He stands his ground perfectly.

    I know that he is basically right, but not in a case like this.

    NO HARD FEELINGS!!!!

    SYAM!

    ReplyDelete
  45. I don't see the use of posting duplicate comments to my posts here, as my originals have never been posted at Madangopal to begin with. Everyone can just follow up on the original thread at Radhe Shyam Dham.

    ReplyDelete
  46. I hope that one day I will be able to stay in Vraj, and I won't be taking a laptop with me; I'll be happy never to see a computer or the internet again.

    Advaita das, I respect you very much. I thought of saying that I thought you should not have blogged it, not given him any more publicity, but then I foolishly went and read the comments.
    ! :-(
    I carried on reading,... horrible, and sad...but then at least I found that Tarun Govinda had said what I was feeling. ...So now I can just ramble on sadly, like this.

    Good doctor and medicine... no, only japa and kirtana. And less reading and thinking.
    And sadhana...? Please. Just 16 rounds a day; then how can there be any nonsense about goswamis and meat.

    ReplyDelete