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Thursday, October 05, 2006

Continued debate on Gaura Nitya Līlā

The ongoing discussion on Gaura-nitya lila et al:
Mādhava writes in Vilasa kunja 30 september 2006-

Mādhava: "The friction arises to a great extent from the fact that the Gosvāmīs themselves wrote very, very little of Mahāprabhu at all, what to speak of touching on the specifics of Gaura-upāsanā and līlā.

Advaitadas: "This provides food for thought. Shouldn't we follow suit and thus be real rūpānugīs? Their format should be followed: They offered obeisances to Gaura once in the invocations of their books and then spoke of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa all the way.

Mādhava: "ārati-songs for Gaura and so forth are also in practise in the line Advaitadas belongs to.

Advaitadas "That is precisely the Gosvāmīs`program - obeisances to Gaura once and then just Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. Also our adhivāsa kīrtans are the same as in the other lines - Gaura all the way. But this is sādhana bhakti!

Mādhava: In general, there is evolution in mantras in the sampradāya - additional mantras are often learned from śikṣā-gurus and passed on to others.

Advaitadas: When you speak of evolution, isn't that like the `bold innovators` we have left other groups for? Can we call a line that `evolves` like that still a paramparā (succession)? Isn't succession meant to be unchanging?

Mādhava: On dīkṣā-mantras, the Hari-bhakti-vilāsa only mentions Kṛṣṇa-mantra and Kāma-gayatri, with passing mention of some Rāma- and Nṛsiṁha-mantras. Gaura goes undiscussed in the work (as does largely Rādhā), for it seems to be aimed at the broadest audience, not only Gaura's followers.

Advaitadas: This is untrue. In Caitanya Caritāmṛta (Madhya 24) Mahāprabhu gives elaborate instructions to Sanātan Goswāmī about the compilation of Hari-bhakti-vilāsa  It has a Gaura maṅgalācaran and is a distinct Gauḍīya Grantha. As Gaura mantra is not there and you admit the mantra`s been in use for just over a century, the conclusion is clear.

Mādhava: Curiously, Gaura-mantra is spoken of in Advaita-prakāśa, one of the very esteemed texts in the line of Advaitadās.

Advaitadas: "This I have already explained on Gaudiya Discussions and on my website It was a procreative mantra meant only for Śacī-mātā and Jagannātha Miśra. Otherwise, it would have been received by us all nowadays, but it isn't.

Madhava: The existence of Gaura's nitya-līlā as an aprakaṭa-prakāśa is questioned. It has not been specifically addressed in any foundational works of the sampradāya, but there is no reason to assume it couldn't be there for those so willing.

Advaitadas: Can it be a spiritual reality without being mentioned in any authorised śāstra?


  1. Perhaps now that you two blessed souls are treading the soil of the Holy Land, one or both of you may consult with some expert sadhus for their opinions? ___/\0_

  2. In regard to Gaura-mantra:

    sri-krsna-caitanya saci-suta guna-dhama
    ei dhyana, ei japa, laya ei nama
    CC, 2.6.258 (it is talking about Sarvabhauma)

  3. In his Sriman-Mahaprabhor asta kaliya lila smarana
    mangala stotram, Srila Visvanatha Chakravarti ends his meditation with this:

    madhyahne saha taih sva-parsada-ganaih samkirtayad-bhir-bhrsam
    sadvaitendu-gadadharah kila saha-srilavadhuta-prabhuh
    arame mrdu-marutaih sisiritair-bhrnga-dvijair-nadite
    svam vrnda-vipinam smaran bhrahmati yas tam gauram-adhyemy-aham
    During the midday period, Lord Chaitanya continues to enjoy the performance of intensely enthusiastic chanting and dancing, surrounded by His own dear devotees such as the moon-like Advaita Acarya, Gadadhara Pandita, and the divine madman Srila Nityananda Prabhu. Afterwards, they all wander throughout the gardens and groves on the bank of the Ganges, where they enjoy the sweet cooling breezes from the river. Hearing the pleasant sounds of the bumblebees in those gardens, the Lord remembers His own ecstatic pastimes of Radha and Krishna as they are occurring simultaneously in His own forest of Vrndavana. I meditate thus on the daily pastimes of Sri Gauranga.

    and this:

    sri-gauranga-vidhoh sva-dhamani navadvipe 'sta-kalodbhavam
    bhavyam bhavya-janena gokula-vidhor-lila-smrter-aditah
    lilam dyotayad-etad-atra dasakam prityanvito yah pathet
    tam prinati sadaiva yah karunaya tam gauram-adhyemy-aham
    Sri Gauranga, the Moon over Navadvipa, is manifest in His own abode during eight periods of each day and every day. His pastimes should be remembered by meditative devotees before they remember the pastimes of Sri Krishna, the Moon over Gokula. If someone lovingly reads or recites the Lord's eternal daily pastimes as they are illuminated in the ten verses of this prayer, then the Lord is immensely pleased with that person, by His own merciful compassion. I thus meditate on the daily pastimes of Sri Gaurachandra.

    Is this an inauthentic innovation?

  4. Akinchan Krishnadas at Vilaskunja:
    "Also, what is the point when Advaita das defends his line's practice of adhivasa kirtan by saying "But this is sadhana bhakti!"? If the point is that at the stage of sadhana it is sometimes important to emphasize Gaura in one's worship, how does this fit in with the overall point that the Goswami's did not emphasize this? Why not just offer obeisances, and then worship Radha Krishna "all the way"?

    advaitadas: Adhivasa kirtan is held before any major event/ceremony. It is not a daily kirtan, but done a few times a year only. But even the daily kirtans of Gaura are, like the adhivasa kirtan, comparible to mangalacarana. The day after adhivasa is 24 hour harekrsna hare krsna krsna krsna hare hare hare rama hare rama rama rama hare hare RK all the way.

  5. Murali: Ths is not a mantra, but a japa which is, incidentally, not practised by any Gaudiya Vashnava group other than the Gauradham people of Radhakund, who block their ears when they hear Radharani's holy names.....

  6. Murali 2 (about Visvanath's Gaur astakala lila-sutra): Well, even Madhava, who is in the pro-Gaurmantra-camp, doubts its authenticity. Whatever the case, the 6 Goswamis are the Supreme Court. The buck stops there.

  7. No, my friend, it is not "jam-packed with shastra and yukti". It is just words in a specific order filled with good-intentions and false pride simultaneously. Your newer version doesn't change that.
    Though I respect your notalter/innovatesiddhantaattitude, you miss a few essential points. Or better, you read points, but miss the line entirely.

    I know what the Goswamis said about Buddha. Duùh. But do you really not understand ,what I meant ? I was not advertising Buddhism, nor am I trying to make you follow Srila Bhaktisiddhanta.
    Maybe it is my lack of writting skills, but in this case I think it is more the unwillingness to listen, just to be silent and feel. Our Jagadananda suffers from the same affliction in a different way, but he is working on it, so we will not critize a dirty fellow under the shower. Who is more dirty then ?

    You are always right, because you are in the proper parampara, walking exactly on that thin line and dedicated to this for over 24 years.

    Our friend is also always right, because he knows Sanskrit, outclasses many, understood the 'inner-meaning', many many years, etcetera.

    I appreciate your effort to follow in 'the pure line'. I also will never say you cannot question religious leaders, even if it concerns my paramguru, because doing that is too much like being a fascist to me. Don't question, don't doubt, just follow. Only if this feeling arises from deep and real spiritual surrender it is okay.

    Anyway, it is never okay to use siddhanta, even if here and there correct, to build your self-esteem.

    Siddhanta is meant to break ahankar, not build it up strong in name of defending your concept of what is 'the pure line'.

    On top of it, I want to add, that our adhikara can sometimes prevent us from seeing that we can be simultaneously right.
    In that though our pride-afflicted-ego cannot advertise itself as being the knower, the teacher. Rather it prevers sophistry over love.

    Our gurus' disagreements can be on a different level beyond the disciples' grasp. Yet too often I see that disciples feel they have too emphasize these differences of opinion in order to feel disciple. But they are not serving their gurus at all. In the name of defending 'the one pure line' propagated by their guru, they actually sometimes do the greatest disservice to their guru. All the time actually. Ego. Identity. Group-consciousness. Feeling inner-guilt towards guru and then becoming a hardliner to make up for that. Many causes.

    Really, your arguments do not hold in the light of love, but I will love you anyways.

    What Madhavananda said somewhere is probably right.... Good walls, make good neighbours. So I will be your good neighbour.
    But please stop attacking Srila Bhaktisiddhanta proclaiming he is not following Gaura. You are not serving anybody with that. Not your Guru, not Advaitacharya, not the Goswamis, not anyone, only your Ahankar.


  8. If you go to Nabadwip and visit the temple of Vishnupriya's Mahaprabhu, then if you have a few minutes to spare you can visit the temple and samadhi of Srila Jagannatha das Babaji just a short walk along the lane. Ask the babaji pujari for a copy of the book about the life and teachings of Srila Jagannatha das Babaji. It only costs a few rupees. Also you can ask if what it says in the book is true. In the book it says that Srila Jagannatha das Babaji used to to chant this Mahamantra of "Mahaprovu":
    Sri Krishna Chaitanya Porvu Nityananda Sri Adaita Gadadhar Sri Basadi Gourbhakta Brinda

    I think the babaji there is in the preceptorial line of Bihari das Babaji, who was a long-time servant of Srila Jagannatha das Babaji and a good friend of Srila Saraswati Thakur. You can ask him about that too, if you like. My elderly guru-bhai Sri Haricharan das Brahmacari took me there and I had a very happy time there. You will find the atmosphere very peaceful, especially when you take a moment to sit under the siddha-bakul tree of Srila Jagannatha das Babaji and reflect on the beauty of the large pond adjoining the temple.

  9. And the reasons for doubting it's authenticity are... ?

  10. Murali, the panca-tattva mantra you mention is probably composed by Jagannath Das Ji himself. No harm so much in using this mantra, though the CC says `panca-tattva tmakam krsnam` Krsna is embodied by the Panca Tattva.

  11. Nee, dat ben ik niet. Ik weet niet zeker of we elkaar ooit ontmoet hebben.
    Ik ben ook geen directe discipel van ACBS. BSS had vele discipelen. De familie is groot.

    Ik ben het natuurlijk niet eens met je loopgraaf-analyse. Maar ik begrijp wel, waarom je zo denkt. Dit soort analyses zijn makkelijk omkeerbaar. Het heet reverse-psychology.

    En daarom ben ik het natuurlijk wel eens met de zinloosheid van deze discussie. Althans deels. Dit is jouw hoekje op het internet en daar mag je zeggen wat je wilt.

    Mijn intentie was niet de gekwetste zeurkoos uithangen, noch jouw te bombarderen met verwijten.
    De intentie van bepaalde schrijfsels van mij was om .. te helpen.
    Ik geloof echt en oprecht, dat het niet goed is voor iemands bhajan, wie dan ook, om je op het gladde ijs te begeven van achterdocht naar de intenties van Krishna's geliefden. Wij zien niet wat BSS wel zag.

    Aangezien ik jou als een toegewijde beschouw, moest ik het toch ff zeggen. Al weet ik, dat het best nog wel eventjes kan duren voor het kwartje gaat vallen.


    Inderdaad, genoeg erover.

    Jay Advaitacarya !!

  12. Dear Advaita ji.

    I've heard many times that Gaura lila appears in the special order of yugas. Do you remember any reference of this special order from Puranas or any other shastras?

    Thanks in advance, Radha dasi.

  13. Radha dasi, sastra is mute about this, especially the Puranas. When I asked my Guru about the eternality of Gaura-lila he said it travels like an intergalactic roadshow across the unlimited universes, performing Gaur-lila in so many Navadwip-towns.

  14. I mean any reference to special order of yugas? Look here, what I found in BBT books. But I can't see any proof of what he said here.

    SB 1.4.14 Purport: There is a chronological order of the four millenniums, namely Satya, Dvāpara, Tretā and Kali. But sometimes there is overlapping. During the regime of Vaivasvata Manu, there was an overlapping of the twenty-eighth round of the four millenniums, and the third millennium appeared prior to the second. In that particular millennium, Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa also descends, and because of this there was some particular alteration.

    Where did he get this idea? Is there anything like that maybe you heard? About special manvantara?

  15. Radhadasi, I checked the main tikas of 1.4.14 and I cannot find this theory. You could ask your local ISKCON scholar perhaps?

  16. I doubt if they exist globally.

  17. Vrajanātha: What is the ultimate destination of the unalloyed bhaktas of Śrī Gaura-Kiśora (Caitanya Mahāprabhu)?

    Bābājī: Śrī Kṛṣṇa and Śrī Gaura-Kiśora are non-different in their tattva (absolute nature). They are both shelters of mādhurya-rasa. However, there is a slight difference between Them because mādhurya-rasa has two prakoṣṭs (chambers). One is the mood of mādhurya (sweetness), and the other is the mood of audārya magnanimity). Śrī Kṛṣṇa’s svārupa is manifest where mādhurya is prominent, and Śrī Gaurāṅga’s form is manifest where audārya is prominent.

    Similarly, the transcendental Vṛndāvana also has two prakoṣṭs (divisions): Śrī Kṛṣṇa’s abode and Śrī Gaura’s abode. The nitya-siddha and nitya-mukta associates who reside in Śrī Kṛṣṇa’s abode are attracted first to mādhurya, and then to audārya.

    The nitya-siddha and nitya-mukta associates who reside in Śrī Gaura’s abode are blissfully absorbed in audārya, and then mādhurya. Some of them reside in both abodes simultaneously by expansions of the self (svarupa-vyuha), while others reside in one spiritual form in only one abode, and not in the other. Those who only worship Śrī Gaura during their period of sādhana, only serve Śrī Gaura when they achieve perfection, while those who only serve Śrī Kṛṣṇa during their period of sādhana serve Śrī Kṛṣṇa on achieving perfection.

    However, those who worship the forms of both Śrī Kṛṣṇa and Śrī Gaura during their period of sādhana manifest two forms when they attain perfection and reside in both abodes simultaneously. The truth of the simultaneous oneness and difference of Śrī Gaura and Śrī Kṛṣṇa is a very confidential secret. JD, Chapter 17, pages 414-415

  18. Gauranga, thank you for your comment. The theories in it are, however, nowhere to be found in any of the Goswamis' books.