Vṛndāvana, September 25, 2006
Yesterday-evening I had a wonderful darśan of one of the senior-most scholars and mahātmās of Vṛndāvana. I ask him two questions. First about Bhaktivinode's statement that Gaura is to be worshipped up to the stage of ruci. He says it is up to the stage of āsakti, which is a near-twin of ruci, but the most interesting thing is that he DOES confirm that Gaura-worship evaporates at a certain stage because Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa is the sādhya. Then, at bhāva and prema-bhakti it is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa-worship all the way. In a sense Gaura-līlā is nitya because Mahāprabhu thinks of Himself as a sakhī, mañjarī, or Rādhā, but for the sādhaka it dissolves (vismṛti, he forgets) at the stage of āsakti.
I then ask him about the theory that the holy name consists of mundane syllables if pronounced by mundaners. He confirms it, saying that the 10 offences also count for non-devotees, even though they don't know them, just like a child can be cured by medicine inside a sweet, unknowingly it will work anyway. He then quotes Bhakti Rasāmṛta Sindhu (1.3.4)
āvirbhūya manovṛttau vrajanti tat svarūpatām
svayaṁ prakāśa-rūpāpi bhāsamānā prakāśyavat
"Bhāva (created by either rāga- or vidhi-sādhana) manifests within the mind, making it attain its real form. Though it is self-manifest by nature it appears to be manifest by the mental faculties."
Bhāva does not manifest in a mundane mind. hari-nāma is similarly self-manifest but it won't sprout on the barren ground of a non-devotee's heart."
Edited (title changed) July 28, 2008
Yesterday-evening I had a wonderful darśan of one of the senior-most scholars and mahātmās of Vṛndāvana. I ask him two questions. First about Bhaktivinode's statement that Gaura is to be worshipped up to the stage of ruci. He says it is up to the stage of āsakti, which is a near-twin of ruci, but the most interesting thing is that he DOES confirm that Gaura-worship evaporates at a certain stage because Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa is the sādhya. Then, at bhāva and prema-bhakti it is Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa-worship all the way. In a sense Gaura-līlā is nitya because Mahāprabhu thinks of Himself as a sakhī, mañjarī, or Rādhā, but for the sādhaka it dissolves (vismṛti, he forgets) at the stage of āsakti.
I then ask him about the theory that the holy name consists of mundane syllables if pronounced by mundaners. He confirms it, saying that the 10 offences also count for non-devotees, even though they don't know them, just like a child can be cured by medicine inside a sweet, unknowingly it will work anyway. He then quotes Bhakti Rasāmṛta Sindhu (1.3.4)
āvirbhūya manovṛttau vrajanti tat svarūpatām
svayaṁ prakāśa-rūpāpi bhāsamānā prakāśyavat
"Bhāva (created by either rāga- or vidhi-sādhana) manifests within the mind, making it attain its real form. Though it is self-manifest by nature it appears to be manifest by the mental faculties."
Bhāva does not manifest in a mundane mind. hari-nāma is similarly self-manifest but it won't sprout on the barren ground of a non-devotee's heart."
Edited (title changed) July 28, 2008
"May I ask who this sadhu in Brindaban is ?"
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately me and some other bhaktas find it better to keep him shielded from the public.
"Is he belonging to a traditional vaisnava line ?"
Yes
"Do the senior traditional vaisnavas accept this line as bonafide ?"
All lines agree there are serious questions about both their diksa and their siksa, yes.
"In consequence they hold the 'Pitambars' then as an example of what can happen if you associate with the traditionals."
We produced one Pitambar, ISKCON produced hundreds if not thousands of them. Why they never look at all the sexual perversions, drug-scandals and fallen Gurus of themselves?
"They are confused with other groups that follow sahajyic practices and hold mayavadic ideas."
Some Saraswat branches conveniently call every other Vaishnava a sahajiya. The original
concept of sahajiya was anyway different. There is a lot of ignorance about that, especially among westerners.
"In return some traditionals got frustrated with the Gaudiya Sarawati's, especially when their guru's were being put on the same list as Bauls, Auls etc."
Not over here. I really dont care how they think about us.
Or am I seeing it all wrong ?
No neither all wrong nor all right. It is an elaborate topic, its not that simple. Even among traditionalists there is a wide range of disputes, actually.
If that is Bhaktivinoda's opinion then how does it figure when he himself stated that dual-smarana of Gaura and Radha-Krishna is to take place so that two siddha-dehas are activated in order to participate simultaneously in the aprakat-lila of Both, and idea shared amongst the majority of (Nityananda-parivar) lines?
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't make sense (to me) to say that Gaura-worship should "evaporate" at some stage when a dual purpose and fulfilment (at least) is desired.
Good to hear of your safe arrival in Braja advaitaji...!
ReplyDeleteJai Radhe
Anuradha: "Is that diplomacy or do you leave it in the middle, because you do not know for sure what the final answers to these questions are ? "
ReplyDeleteIt is diplomacy. Earlier I stated that I dont want this site to be an affront to anyone - yet I can also not hush up the obvious....
A thin line, you see?
Gaurasundara: "If that is Bhaktivinoda's opinion then how does it figure when he himself stated that dual-smarana of Gaura and Radha-Krishna is to take place so that two siddha-dehas are activated in order to participate simultaneously in the aprakat-lila of Both, and idea shared amongst the majority of (Nityananda-parivar) lines?"
ReplyDeleteI am not a scholar of Bhaktivinode, so I cant answer that, though I heard that his writings contain many contradictions. BVT's ruci-idea I have from Tripurari Swami's Siksastakam-book, with Bengali quote. The 'two siddha-dehas' idea actually originates from Vakresvara's line, not Nityananda's.
I see.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunatly that is where we seperate. What is obvious to you in this matter, seems ridiculous to me, having seen and lived with a few disciples of BS Sarawati energized with love coming through... parampara.
Unfortunately sectarian consciousness makes people on all sides unable to recognize loving devotees where they appear.
I just wish this curse will not catch me as well.
You do not have to react to this. It's useless
Still I wish you my very very best in your efforts to please our Lord who is dear to us all. Maybe one day somewhere we can shake hands again.
Praying for the dust of ALL devotees of the Lord.
You have mentioned that the Vrndavana sadhu confirmed that Gaura-worship evaporates at a certain stage because Radha-Krishna is the sAdhya. Do you know if this sadhu also agrees with the idea you say originates with Vakreshvar's line that two siddha dehas serve in both Gaura lila and Krishna lila?
ReplyDeleteForgetting how Bhaktivinoda reconciles these points (since you say you are not a scholar of his work, and since this apparent contradition does not seeem exclusive to his work), how do you reconcile these points? How does the Vrndavana scholar you consulted reconcile these points?
Thank you for another interesting blog!
In this case all Mahaptabhu associates must had been limited to ruci/asakti stages. Never gone to stage of Asakti I guess.
ReplyDeleteWhat would be the interpretation of "Na So Raman Na hum Ramani" and why after chanting whole life "H K" mahamantra, Haridas Thakur left this world by chanting "Sri Krishna Chaitnya" ?
Dear Anuradha,
ReplyDeleteI wasnt speaking about just parampara. What else you wanted me to do? You asked a question, I gave you an honest answer....
"In this case all Mahaptabhu associates must had been limited to ruci/asakti stages. Never gone to stage of Asakti I guess."
ReplyDeleteThat is silly. You know they are all Krishna's parikaras in Goloka, descending in prakatlila as males....
"and why after chanting whole life "H K" mahamantra, Haridas Thakur left this world by chanting "Sri Krishna Chaitnya" ?
Mahaprabhu stood right in front of Him, what would anyone say in that circumstance? radha-bhava dyuti subalitam naumi KRSNA swarupam....
"Do you know if this sadhu also agrees with the idea you say originates with Vakreshvar's line that two siddha dehas serve in both Gaura lila and Krishna lila? "
ReplyDeleteI forgot to mention that he said the brahmin kishor deha evaporates at Asakti
"How do YOU reconcile it?"
aradhyo bhagavan brajesha tanayah - "The worshipable God is Krishna the prince of Vraja"
radha krsna kunja seva SADHYA se pay (CC) "He will attain the GOAL of Radhakrishna's kunja-seva"
No offense intended Advaitaji, but I may suggest that such quotes, although interesting, are not extremely helpful. I cannot accept any answer as definitive without knowing the source.
ReplyDeleteI indeed belief your answer is honest.
ReplyDeleteFrom a sectarian point of view that is.
I am not troubled by other differences of opinion. "Color of dress", so to speak, seems insignificant to me.
In Europe we all are wearing neither saffron nor white on the streets, isn't it ? Some of us even go to the temple dressed in blue ?!!! So these are relative issues.
Doubting the integrity of pure devotees is not a relative issue to me. Advancement is checked if one continues on that path.
For me personnally this attitude is a big dissapointment, because I like the "traditionals" and their knowledge. But if that knowledge leads to critizing Bhaktisiddhanta in his actual connection with guru and his disciples, I rather remain stupid. For what good will that knowledge do to me ?
I hope to meet a "traditional gaudiya" one day that is able to glorify Srila Bhaktissidhanta Saraswati without ambivalance concerning relative issues and can see Chaitanya's signature in his example. I'll be happy to take instructions from such a person.
Please, let me know if you find one, even if you disagree with him.
Until that time I will stop visiting your blog for a while even though it
will be hard for me and it saddens me deeply without excageration.
Haribol
What is the meaning of a siddha deha that evaporates at a certain stage? Aren't siddha dehas eternally perfected forms?
ReplyDeleteAre you saying that the brahmin kishor deha only exists temporarily in the mind during sadhana but is not an eternal reality? How do devotees serve Gaura lila in the spiritual world? Does Gaura lila even exist in the spiritual world?
I must say, this is certainly shocking news!
Jai Sri Guru Gauranga! I please urge to first undestand this line of thought before making such comments. Thakur Bhaktivinode writes in his books that the Gaura Lila deha auto manifests once you become siddha and enter in Krishna Lila, as a dual Svarupa
DeleteUnknown, there is no evidence for that in any of the previous acaryas books.
DeleteWould you please be generous and kind enough to ask the first question at least another five Mahatma from braja and post there opinion here as well?
ReplyDeleteIf possible , if you could get to reach Navadwip and Orissa that will too great.
Anuradha, sorry you're going, but I can only stretch myself THIS MUCH to try to please everybody. One cannot please everyone all of the time. Ik heb je eerder aangeboden om prive te corresponderen. Het Bhaktisiddhanta-verhaal is lang en uitgebreid, maar dat moet je zelf weten. Zolang je niet op de hoogte bent van alle feiten kan je niet zomaar iemand 'offensive' noemen. Dat is me de afgelopen 24 jaar honderden keren overkomen, en meestal kreeg ik uiteindelijk toch gelijk. Het is allemaal angst....
ReplyDeleteRadhika Dasi: Just reverse the situation: Where in shastra will you find the opposite evidence? If there is no evidence either way, then yukti, or common sense must prevail.
ReplyDeleteAnon: "Would you please be generous and kind enough to ask the first question at least another five Mahatma from braja and post there opinion here as well?
ReplyDeleteIf possible , if you could get to reach Navadwip and Orissa that will too great. "
There is absolutely no need for that. I have learned this basic idea from my Guru 24 years ago, and the mahatma I visited monday just filled in the blanks. Even that visit wasnt strictly necessary. The impetus was given by reading BVT's point of ruci in Tripurari Swami's book, with Bengali quotation in the endnotes. Check it out.
"What is the meaning of a siddha deha that evaporates at a certain stage? Aren't siddha dehas eternally perfected forms?"
ReplyDeleteIn my line we do not accept this brahmin kishor deha at all, the evaporation of it doesnmt take place in our practise. However, you may like to peruse the final chapters of Madhurya Kadambini, where there is a fascinating description of the identification with the material body slowly changing into an identification with the spiritual body. In our opinion the sadhaka deha is the deha in Gauralila.
"Does Gaura lila even exist in the spiritual world?"
Check it out in the Goswamis' books. They are fully mute about this. My Guru said that Navadwip-lila is eternal, in the sense that it travels around the material universes like Krishna-lila (the fire-brand).
Advaita Das: ...then yukti, or common sense must prevail.
ReplyDeleteCommon sense dictates that you MUST state your source when publishing information, in order for your arguments to hold weight. Furthermore, it sets a bad precedent. Anyone can cite a "mystery mahatma" and have his arguments verified in that way.
Advaita Das: Just reverse the situation: Where in shastra will you find the opposite evidence?
You haven't provided any evidence from shastra to support your claim. Why should we accept your assertion? No shastra and a mystery mahatma?
Gaura lila only exists out of necessity in the world of maya. Gaura lila is about the distribution of Krishna to the fallen souls. Since there are no fallen souls in the eternal vaikuntha realm therefore there is no need to save anyone there.
ReplyDeleteWhile the other reason for Mahaprabhu's descent (tasting Radha's mahabhava) may seem like a reason other then saving the fallen souls, and therefore by necessity is not excluded from taking place in the eternal vaikuntha realm, in fact that is not really the case. Krishna's desire to taste Radha's mahabhava is an esoteric teaching meant for the upliftment of conditioned souls. In truth Radha and Krishna are not different.
radha -- purna-sakti, krsna -- purna-saktiman
dui vastu bheda nai, sastra-paramana
mrgamada, tara gandha -- yaiche aviccheda
agni, jvalate -- yaiche kabhu nahi bheda
radha-krsna aiche sada eka-i svarupa
lila-rasa asvadite dhare dui-rupa
The worship of Gaura does fall away because the jiva's eternal bhava and rasa is with Radha Krishna. Mahaprabhu is like a bridge that the jiva crosses to reach Vraja consciousness from the world of maya consciousness. After attaining intimacy with Radha Krishna there is no reason for the jiva to relate with Mahaprabhu in private bhajan because the jiva has entered into his eternal relationship with Bhagavan. In public there may still be some Gaura related activity if that devotee is a gosthyanandi, but that is for the benefit of others. The inner life of that jiva has been transformed and he relates with Radha Krishna, not Mahaprabhu.
Just as there is 'tarko pratistha in material arguments and reasonings, there may also be a multiplicity of different opinions in the Gaudiya school. That is why apasampradayas creep up.
ReplyDeleteIf the dual-siddhadeha idea began in Vakresvara's parampara then fair enough, but it is also fair to say that Nityananda-parivaris agree with this and observe this too, right?
I have to admit that I find all of this very strange. The point about "evaporation" is a good one, what does it mean precisely?
About Gaura-lila being eternal, the books of several mahajans (Sri Lochan das Thakur for example) confirm that Gaurahari has His own 'loka' where He is served by both Radha and Rukmini (and their dasis). That aside, if He has His own 'loka' then that surely means that His (Gaurahari's) lila is eternal. Isn't it so that all avatars have their own lokas in the paravyoma or so?
I suspect that this mahatma Advaitaji speaks of is a member of Advaita-parivar, am I right? It seems that all of these contradictions are contradicting each other.
"If the dual-siddhadeha idea began in Vakresvara's parampara then fair enough, but it is also fair to say that Nityananda-parivaris agree with this and observe this too, right?"
ReplyDeleteYes it is but I persoally doubt whether they received this in akhanda parampara from Nitai Cand...
"About Gaura-lila being eternal, the books of several mahajans (Sri Lochan das Thakur for example) confirm that Gaurahari has His own 'loka' where He is served by both Radha and Rukmini (and their dasis)."
Gaurahari is Krishna. That loka is obviously Krishnaloka.
"I suspect that this mahatma Advaitaji speaks of is a member of Advaita-parivar, am I right? "
No he isnt. I think generally this is a matter of spiritual revelation rather than factional infighting.
Advaita: "Gaurahari is Krishna. That loka is obviously Krishnaloka."
ReplyDeleteSorry, I should have been more specific. That part of Sri Lochan das Thakur's work actually specifies that it is Gaurahari who is being served by Radha and Rukmini, given abhishek by the both of Them. Reference is made to His golden complexion and all. So it definitely points to a 'Gauraloka' as it were. I'll have to read it again but if I recall correctly, the story is about how Narada visits 'Gauraloka' to see Gaura. Perhaps someone with Caitanya-Mangala can clarify?
Advaita: "No he isnt. I think generally this is a matter of spiritual revelation rather than factional infighting."
Ah well, I guess it is all subjective then. :-)
Surya always remains in the jyotiscakra. Wherever the sun comes one experiences suryodaya and wherever he goes is suryasta. The sun is always there, though. Similarly prakat-lila is always there but is experienced as Bhagavan's "coming" and "going". In relation to Gaur-lila this is repeatedly stated in Caitanya Bhagavat - "avirbhava tirobhava kohe matra veda". Caitanya Bhagavat and Caritamrita are the major Caitanya-shastras and from them it is clear there is no Gaura nitya-lila. Lochan Das' book is minor in comparison. The description there of "Gaur-loka" may be a hyperbole of glorification or poetry.
ReplyDeleteHi,
ReplyDeleteMy name is Kunja Bihari.
Do you speak Hungarian?
No but you can use Google Translate.
DeleteSri guru gauranga jayatah.
ReplyDeleteThe answer to your question regarding the Gaudiya Saraswat Dhara being bonafie or not:we accept there are two types of Parampara 1. Pancharatrik Vidhi Paramapara and 2. Bhagavat Parampara. The Pancharatrik Vidhi Paramapara only accepts the Vishnu mantras given by the guru at the type of dikskha but may or may not accept the teachings in siddhanta for example Sriman Mahaprabhu's accepting Sanyas from Keshav Bharati but not his moods or teaching. Second is the Bhagavat Paramapara which may be Shiksha or Diksha, for example there is no praman that Sriman Mahaprabhu gave dikskha to Srila Rupa Goswami, he imparted him his mood and teachings in Prayag but is accepted in the Parampara of Gaudiya Vaishanavas. So there is no question of the Gaudiya Saraswat Dhara being a bona fide Paramapara, the problem is a lack of the mentality of us all being "Gaudiya Vaishanavas" in the line of Mahaprabhu and we end up fighting for lesser things