Mr Gaurav Mohnot writes on his blog:
GM: "The words manjari-bhava and sadhana do not go well together. Manjari bhava (entering into the group of the manjari gopies who are assitants of the sakhis in the service of Shri Shri Radha Krishna) is the attainment in the siddha or perfected stage not in the stage of sadhana bhakti. "
Advaitadas:
1. That would mean the entire sampradāya, which is practising mañjarī bhāva, is wrong and mr Mohnot alone is right?
2. Mahāprabhu says in Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 8. 197: sādhya-vastu' 'sādhana' vinu keha nāhi pāya – ‘Without sādhana no one can attain one’s sādhya [desired goal].”
So how can one attain siddhi in anything without the prerequisite sadhana?
3. Śrī Viśvanātha Cakravarti mentions mañjari bhāva sādhana in his commentary on Bhakti Rasāmṛta Sindhu 1.2.295 (sādhana bhakti chapter) : siddha-rūpeṇa mānasī-sevā srī-rādhā-lalitā-visākhā-śrī-rūpa-mañjary-ādīnāṁ anusāreṇa kartavyā 'Serving with the siddha deha means mental service which must be rendered in the wake of Śrī-Rādhā, Lalitā, Visākhā, Rūpa-Mañjarī and others."
GM: "In fact what has been repeatedly taught and stressed in all these Holy Books, by Lord Gauranga Himself and all His Associates is, Naam Sadhana, which leads to the awakening of the constitutional bhava of the soul with the Lord which can be in any of the five primary mellows of neutrality, servitude, brotherhood, parenthood or lover and which includes manjari-bhava."
Advaitadas: No one denies that nāma is the sadhana, where does anyone suggest otherwise?
GM: "If it was so important or being taught by some then I am sure the Acharyas would have described about it in detail or at least mentioned it as bonafide in these primary biographies which contain all the important instructions of Lord Gauranga and His eternal Associates.”
“We see that this practice of manjari-bhava-sadhana is not taught in any of the principal books about Lord Gauranga because it simply does not exist as manjari-bhava cannot be even understood what to speak of being taught or practiced in the sadhana stage.”
Advaitadas:: It was not mentioned in Caitanya Caritāmṛta due to its confidential nature, but if it were not important, not bona fide, and it does not even exist, then the ācāryas would not have mentioned it either in an ocean of books like Ujjvala Nīlamaṇi, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Gaṇoddeśa Dīpikā, Vilāpa Kusumāñjali, Saṅkalpa Kalpadruma, Prema Bhakti Candrikā, Utkalikā vallarī, Govinda Līlāmṛta, Kṛṣṇa Bhāvanāmṛta, Rādhā Rasa Sudhānidhi, Vṛndāvana Mahimāmṛta etc.
GM: "Even rāgānugā bhakti (spontaneous attraction to the Holy Names) cannot be artifically taught or practiced as it has to compulsorily arise spontaneously either due to our Nāma Sādhana in vaidhi bhakti..”
Advaitadas::
1. rāgānugā bhakti is a sādhana just as vaidhi bhakti is (see Bhakti Rasāmṛta Sindhu 1.2.5)
2. rāgānugā bhakti does not arise from vaidhi bhakti – they are two separate parallel paths, as is explained in the sādhana-, bhāva- and prema-bhakti chapters of Bhakti Rasāmṛta Sindhu.
3. rāgānugā does not mean ‘spontaneous’ – it means ‘following’(anuga) ‘passion’ (rāga). As if the Lord's associates (pārṣadas) in Vaikuṇṭha have no spontaneous love for Narayan.…
GM: “….or due to the intense greed for attaining the Lord which arises due to many previous lives of practicing Naam sadhana and vaidhi bhakti…”
Advaitadas:: Neither ‘intense’ greed, nor ‘many lifetimes’ is mentioned anywhere in the śāstra. There is no quantitative difference mentioned between vaidhi bhakti and rāgānugā bhakti anywhere. Both Śrīla Jīva Goswāmī and Śrī Viśvanātha Cakravartīpāda comment that lobha starts from the pinprick-stage (yat kiñcit, Bhakti Rasāmṛta Sindhu 1.2.292 ṭīkās), not that a fire is blazing from the first instant.
GM: "One needs Naam siddhi or Shuddha Naam to actually understand and realize these high topics. And when one gets Naam siddhi then all these truths will be spontaneously revealed in our heart without any artificial attempts to practice or teach them."
Advaitadas:: This ‘nāma siddhi’ too is mentioned nowhere in the śāstras, nor its requirement.
Advaitadas:: Perhaps mr Mohnot should study and ponder the 4th verse of Caitanya Caritāmṛta’s introduction and indeed, its paribhāṣā or bottom line:
anarpita-carim cirāt karuṇayāvatīrnaḥ kalau
samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasaṁ sva-bhakti-śriyam
hariḥ puraṭa-sundara-dyuti-kadamba-sandīpitaḥ
sadā hṛdaya-kandare sphuratu vaḥ śacī-nandanaḥ
‘May the Supreme Lord who is known as the son of Śrīmatī Śacī-devī be transcendentally situated in the innermost core of your heart. Resplendent with the radiance of molten gold, He has descended in the Age of Kali by His causeless mercy to bestow what no incarnation has ever offered before: the most elevated mellow of devotional service, the mellow of conjugal love.’”
Let me offer my support to Mr Mohnot in trying to keep confidential things confidential, but still, let him not preach things without properly understanding or presenting the teachings of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī..
GM: "The words manjari-bhava and sadhana do not go well together. Manjari bhava (entering into the group of the manjari gopies who are assitants of the sakhis in the service of Shri Shri Radha Krishna) is the attainment in the siddha or perfected stage not in the stage of sadhana bhakti. "
Advaitadas:
1. That would mean the entire sampradāya, which is practising mañjarī bhāva, is wrong and mr Mohnot alone is right?
2. Mahāprabhu says in Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 8. 197: sādhya-vastu' 'sādhana' vinu keha nāhi pāya – ‘Without sādhana no one can attain one’s sādhya [desired goal].”
So how can one attain siddhi in anything without the prerequisite sadhana?
3. Śrī Viśvanātha Cakravarti mentions mañjari bhāva sādhana in his commentary on Bhakti Rasāmṛta Sindhu 1.2.295 (sādhana bhakti chapter) : siddha-rūpeṇa mānasī-sevā srī-rādhā-lalitā-visākhā-śrī-rūpa-mañjary-ādīnāṁ anusāreṇa kartavyā 'Serving with the siddha deha means mental service which must be rendered in the wake of Śrī-Rādhā, Lalitā, Visākhā, Rūpa-Mañjarī and others."
GM: "In fact what has been repeatedly taught and stressed in all these Holy Books, by Lord Gauranga Himself and all His Associates is, Naam Sadhana, which leads to the awakening of the constitutional bhava of the soul with the Lord which can be in any of the five primary mellows of neutrality, servitude, brotherhood, parenthood or lover and which includes manjari-bhava."
Advaitadas: No one denies that nāma is the sadhana, where does anyone suggest otherwise?
GM: "If it was so important or being taught by some then I am sure the Acharyas would have described about it in detail or at least mentioned it as bonafide in these primary biographies which contain all the important instructions of Lord Gauranga and His eternal Associates.”
“We see that this practice of manjari-bhava-sadhana is not taught in any of the principal books about Lord Gauranga because it simply does not exist as manjari-bhava cannot be even understood what to speak of being taught or practiced in the sadhana stage.”
Advaitadas:: It was not mentioned in Caitanya Caritāmṛta due to its confidential nature, but if it were not important, not bona fide, and it does not even exist, then the ācāryas would not have mentioned it either in an ocean of books like Ujjvala Nīlamaṇi, Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Gaṇoddeśa Dīpikā, Vilāpa Kusumāñjali, Saṅkalpa Kalpadruma, Prema Bhakti Candrikā, Utkalikā vallarī, Govinda Līlāmṛta, Kṛṣṇa Bhāvanāmṛta, Rādhā Rasa Sudhānidhi, Vṛndāvana Mahimāmṛta etc.
GM: "Even rāgānugā bhakti (spontaneous attraction to the Holy Names) cannot be artifically taught or practiced as it has to compulsorily arise spontaneously either due to our Nāma Sādhana in vaidhi bhakti..”
Advaitadas::
1. rāgānugā bhakti is a sādhana just as vaidhi bhakti is (see Bhakti Rasāmṛta Sindhu 1.2.5)
2. rāgānugā bhakti does not arise from vaidhi bhakti – they are two separate parallel paths, as is explained in the sādhana-, bhāva- and prema-bhakti chapters of Bhakti Rasāmṛta Sindhu.
3. rāgānugā does not mean ‘spontaneous’ – it means ‘following’(anuga) ‘passion’ (rāga). As if the Lord's associates (pārṣadas) in Vaikuṇṭha have no spontaneous love for Narayan.…
GM: “….or due to the intense greed for attaining the Lord which arises due to many previous lives of practicing Naam sadhana and vaidhi bhakti…”
Advaitadas:: Neither ‘intense’ greed, nor ‘many lifetimes’ is mentioned anywhere in the śāstra. There is no quantitative difference mentioned between vaidhi bhakti and rāgānugā bhakti anywhere. Both Śrīla Jīva Goswāmī and Śrī Viśvanātha Cakravartīpāda comment that lobha starts from the pinprick-stage (yat kiñcit, Bhakti Rasāmṛta Sindhu 1.2.292 ṭīkās), not that a fire is blazing from the first instant.
GM: "One needs Naam siddhi or Shuddha Naam to actually understand and realize these high topics. And when one gets Naam siddhi then all these truths will be spontaneously revealed in our heart without any artificial attempts to practice or teach them."
Advaitadas:: This ‘nāma siddhi’ too is mentioned nowhere in the śāstras, nor its requirement.
GM: "Another point which is quite prominently not in favor of manjari bhava sadhana is that not all the followers of Lord Gauranga in the past or in the present or in the future were, are, or are going to be only in the mellow of a lover with Lord Krishna. We see that even amongst Lord Gauranga's Associates, devotees of all mellows are present like Shrila Murari Gupta (Shrila Hanuman from Ayodhya), Shrila Ananta Acharya (Shrila Ramanuja from Vaikuntha), Shrila Jagadananda (Shrila Satyabhama from Dvaraka) etc. So how can we say or force all followers of Lord Gaurahari in the present and future to follow manjari-bhava or the mood of manjari gopies? Lord Gauranga is the Lord of the devotees with all mellows and by restricting His worship and approach only to manjari-bhava or unduly emphasizing it exclusively would be an injustice to millions of souls whose constitutional relationship with Lord Krishna may not be as a lover. Even in the mellow of a lover, one have different relationships with the Lord other than manjaris like for example the svakiya queens in Dvaraka etc."
Advaitadas:: Perhaps mr Mohnot should study and ponder the 4th verse of Caitanya Caritāmṛta’s introduction and indeed, its paribhāṣā or bottom line:
anarpita-carim cirāt karuṇayāvatīrnaḥ kalau
samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasaṁ sva-bhakti-śriyam
hariḥ puraṭa-sundara-dyuti-kadamba-sandīpitaḥ
sadā hṛdaya-kandare sphuratu vaḥ śacī-nandanaḥ
‘May the Supreme Lord who is known as the son of Śrīmatī Śacī-devī be transcendentally situated in the innermost core of your heart. Resplendent with the radiance of molten gold, He has descended in the Age of Kali by His causeless mercy to bestow what no incarnation has ever offered before: the most elevated mellow of devotional service, the mellow of conjugal love.’”
Let me offer my support to Mr Mohnot in trying to keep confidential things confidential, but still, let him not preach things without properly understanding or presenting the teachings of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī..
Goodness, this topic has been discussed to death!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteGM: One needs Naam siddhi or Shuddha Naam to actually understand and realize these high topics. And when one gets Naam siddhi then all these truths will be spontaneously revealed in our heart without any artificial attempts to practice or teach them.
AD: This ‘Naam siddhi’ too is mentioned nowhere in the shastras, nor its requirement.Advaitadas, nevermind that Naam Siddhi is not anywhere in the shastras; this is just a matter of terminology. But I think the issue of great importance here (and one GM would have to tell us if his argument will hold up at all) is: who will decide if one is already on a Naam siddhi level or where can one get Suddha (pure)Naaam?
I think the subjective level or micro level of this determination has been subordinated to the macro level which is the tradition of Gaudiya Vaishnavism (eg., diksha initiation by a bonafide GV Guru). Of course if one decides to squander this opportunity, you only have yourself to blame, not the beautiful system of Gvism.
It is for this reason why Gaudiya Vaishnavas are called Rupanugas because we are meant to follow in the footsteps of Srila Rupa Goswami.
I think people outside of the "traditional" line meaning those from GM or ISkcon and their offshoot are so hang up on (or with emotional difficulties regarding) manjari bhava and its sadhana because they think there is something sinister and immoral about it.
I tell you this, it is anything but!
"I think people outside of the "traditional" line meaning those from GM or ISkcon and their offshoot are so hang up on (or with emotional difficulties regarding) manjari bhava and its sadhana because they think there is something sinister and immoral about it."
DeleteMaybe, but I think more often it comes down to a lack of proper sambandha-jnana. Having been taught to avoid "higher topics" devotees lack an accurate understand of what raganuga-bhakti is in general and bhavollasa-rati is specifically, as well as what constitutes adhikara for cultivating it. Things left in the dark can sometimes seem scary.
Malati: Goodness, this topic has been discussed to death!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteAD: The new thing about this theory of Mr Mohnot is that manjari bhava sadhana does not exist. It is not the old topic of qualification for raga bhakti.
Malati: I think people outside of the "traditional" line meaning those from GM or ISkcon and their offshoot are so hang up on (or with emotional difficulties regarding) manjari bhava and its sadhana because they think there is something sinister and immoral about it.
AD: A few blogs ago I quoted Mukunda Das Goswami in explaining how those who think that madhurya rasa is the same as its mundane counterpart do not qualify for madhurya rasa.
M: Advaitadas, nevermind that Naam Siddhi is not anywhere in the shastras; this is just a matter of terminology.
AD: What the acaryas all say in chorus is that things get revealed at the stage of bhava [rati], without linking it to something vague as naam siddhi.
Excelent!
ReplyDeleteYou know what might be interesting Advaitadas? You can start another blog where you quote erroneous postings of various IGM wallas and then illustrate the proper understanding with sastric evidence and common sense. I seriously hope no one out there is reading this Mr. Mohnot and thinking they are getting the proper siddhanta.
ReplyDeleteThe use of the Vedabase without realization or guidance to understand it is the basis for many blogs these days. Unfortunately.
ReplyDeleteMr. Mohnot is being read. He recently had a posting on Sampradaya Sun.
Thanks advaitadas for your support to me in keeping confidential topics confidential.well there many more articles on raganuga bhakti,qualification reguired for higer katha,gosthanandi &bhajananandi etc on my blog which defeats your arguments .I think you should read and study those before commenting.you should also study and understand the teachings of Srila Prabhupada,Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada,Bhakti Vinode Thakur,who are acharayas, on these topics.mahajano yena gatah
ReplyDeletesa panthah.Do not speculate,every conditioned soul has 4 defects i think you know better than me this fact.Better to follow the current acharayas and understant the teachings of the previous acharayas through them than to speculate and imagine want the previous acharayas meant.I thing you are intelligent you know all these facts better than me.
And for your facts I myself has undergone siddha pranali process for 4years under ananta dasa pandit to no effect.
your servant,
gaurav mohnot
email:mohnotgaurav18@yahoo.co.in
website:http://leagueofdevotees.blogspot.com/
GM: I think you should read and study those before commenting.
ReplyDeleteA: I have been through your blog and it was very interesting. I am also well aware of those arguments as I was a member of Iskcon from 1978 to 1982. In that sense it was nothing new to me.
GM: you should also study and understand the teachings of Srila Prabhupada,Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada,Bhakti Vinode Thakur,who are acharayas, on these topics.
A: That too I have done extensively, not only from 1978 to 1982, but also later.
GM: mahajano yena gatah sa panthah.
A: Gaudiya Vaishnava Mahajanas are the six Goswamis, whom I am persistently quoting throughout this blog.
GM: Do not speculate,every conditioned soul has 4 defects i think you know better than me this fact.
A: It is exactly for this reason that I am persistently quoting the mahajanas like Rupa Goswami and Visvanath Cakravartipada. They are free from these 4 defects, I hope you will agree.
GM: Better to follow the current acharayas and understant the teachings of the previous acharayas through them than to speculate and imagine want the previous acharayas meant.
A: That will be a bit hard in case there are contradictions between the previous acaryas and the current ones. It is not that I am not sympathetic - I hope you have read my blog of May 16, 2009 to that extent. I acknowledge there is a practical way of looking towards raganuga adhikara.
GM: I thing you are intelligent you know all these facts better than me.
A: Thank you. Perhaps that could warrant a further study of my blog.
GM: And for your facts I myself has undergone siddha pranali process for 4 years under ananta dasa pandit to no effect.
A: Perhaps you have been a bit impatient. 4 years is a mighty short time to attain bhava bhakti stage. It is funny, too, since 4 years is also the time I spent following your current acaryas.
Mr. Mohnot does not do a very good job of representing the Bhaktivinoda parivara's understanding on this topic.
Delete"4 years is a mighty short time to attain bhava bhakti stage"
Exactly what I thought. Four years in one is still getting acquainted with what is going on. To expect to have deep realizations of manjari-bhava in that amount of time is unrealistic to say the least.
Gaurav Mohnot has no thoughts of his own on this subject. He has just copied Sadhu Gaurangapada's essay verbatim, http://nitaaiveda.com/NITAAI_Yoga_Forums/Swami%27s_Writings_and_Articles/Manjari_Bhava_Sadhana.htm
ReplyDelete