tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post7784482192421468546..comments2024-03-07T19:16:51.653+01:00Comments on madangopal: The Bhāgavata on misogynyadvaitadashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-20029204371983356392008-02-05T17:16:00.000+01:002008-02-05T17:16:00.000+01:00The sloka is not saying women, vaishyas or shudras...<I>The sloka is not saying women, vaishyas or shudras are "lowborn". It is listing them along with the lowborn as those who normally did not have oppurtunities in that day and region of the world.<BR/><BR/>THANK GOD THINGS HAVE CHANGED (even in India)!!!!!!</I><BR/><BR/>Also, evidently the main point of this sloka is not about differences but about equality. Krsna is clearly indicating here that a really enlightened man ceases to discriminate on the basis of circumstances but instead levels out all souls to their rightful constitutional position which is of a volunteer servant. This is not even about mercy, but about comon sense and logic duh.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-78509691635810042122008-02-03T16:43:00.000+01:002008-02-03T16:43:00.000+01:00AnonymousThat is not a proper translation of the t...Anonymous<BR/><BR/>That is not a proper translation of the text.<BR/><BR/>Krishna is not saying that women are lowborn, he is saying that those who take shelter of Him; be they lowborn, women, vaishyas or shudras, will attain Him.<BR/><BR/>Basically he was listing the non-elite of society.<BR/><BR/>Brahmins and Ksatriyas were an elite minority at the time, at the top of the rung with access to higher education and the hosting of sadhus and jesters in their courts and homes. <BR/><BR/>The working class - vaishyas and shudras, as well as women and those considered "lowborn" did not have as much access to education and thus an elite member of society might think that they did not have sufficient oppurtunities to read shastra or avail themselves of kathas in languages they may not know or sadhu sangas. <BR/><BR/>Plus, being the working class, they would be working hard during the day to support the elite classes and thus where was the time?<BR/><BR/>So Krishna is saying here that these persons, those generally neglected in terms of higher education and oppurtunities, they can also reach Him, in case there was any doubt about it.<BR/><BR/>The sloka is not saying women, vaishyas or shudras are "lowborn". It is listing them along with the lowborn as those who normally did not have oppurtunities in that day and region of the world.<BR/><BR/>THANK GOD THINGS HAVE CHANGED (even in India)!!!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-33824135173544201882008-02-03T08:12:00.000+01:002008-02-03T08:12:00.000+01:00Can anyone clarify through the comments from Acary...<I>Can anyone clarify through the comments from Acaryas why Krishna categorized women as low born?</I><BR/><BR/>The commentaries of Visvanath and Baladeva do not elaborate on that, they simply confirm the text. However, the Gita (13.22) <B>does</B> say that according to one's attachment to a certain guna or culture/mentality and karma or its consequent activities one takes birth in either good or bad species - <I>kAraNaM guNa sango'sya sad-asad yoni janmasu</I> - I would say that is really standard, basic Gita-knowledge.advaitadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-40634219666069092592008-02-03T02:02:00.000+01:002008-02-03T02:02:00.000+01:00Prabhus,No offense to any devotees, can I please c...Prabhus,<BR/><BR/>No offense to any devotees, can I please clarify one of my doubt?<BR/><BR/>In BG chapter 9 text 32 Krishna says "O Son of Prtha, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth - women, vaisyas, as well as sudras - can approach the supreme destination".<BR/><BR/>Can anyone clarify through the comments from Acaryas why Krishna categorized women as low born? <BR/><BR/>Radhe-KrishnaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-3705342045129060082008-01-29T16:25:00.000+01:002008-01-29T16:25:00.000+01:00The Indian system of joint family lifestyle plays ...The Indian system of joint family lifestyle plays a big part in the positioning of women both in society in general and the family in particular.<BR/><BR/>So much can and has been said about this. There's alot of literature out there written by Indian women themselves about the pros and cons of their culture.<BR/><BR/>Regarding the dancing thing. I've moved in many Indian vaishnava circles and several women do dance. It's normally not the choreographed style of dancing you get at Iskcon centers during a rip roaring kirtan, but it is dancing. <BR/><BR/>Also, Braj has it's own type of folk dance and whenever a kirtan reaches especially sweet heights, you will always find a few Brij basi women getting up and shaking their booty Braj style, even if it's a sit down kirtan. <BR/><BR/>In Indian Gaudiya vaishnava circles that have a significant percentage of western female sisyas, you will often see a similar type of choregraphed dance as is staple fair in any Iskcon temple. <BR/><BR/>It all depends on the sanga.<BR/><BR/>It appears from Lake of Flowers that women attendees of kirtan are in a minority compared to the men, at least that is what the photos and videos convey. <BR/><BR/>But generally speaking, even now in 2008, the Indian vaishnava circles I have moved in appear to still be male dominated in the sense that the ashrams, maths, mandirs and other living facilities are primarily filled with men. This reflects the culture from which the religion sprang - in olden days more men than women chose to remain single and thus the ashrams that were built were built to accomodate those men and their other single male friends. Women who chose to remain single either continued to reside with their families (and some men did too), or made their own way. <BR/><BR/>This pattern continues even today.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I feel that women making their own way has some benefits in that you are able to remain "independent" both physically and psychologically from any "institution". <BR/><BR/>However, it can be damaging both physically and psychologically if the women do not have sufficient financial resources to maintain themselves in a healthy and safe manner. And this is exactly the condition of many women in the Braj area, unfortunately.<BR/><BR/>Between east and west, the position of women is far more progressed in the west. <BR/><BR/>But alas! That is part of the sacrifice we have to undergo in order to get rasik vaishnava sanga in the Holy Dham. <BR/><BR/>Nothing comes without a price!<BR/><BR/>But I do feel western vaishnavas can be a catalyst for positive change in India, just as Indian rasik vaishnavas have something to contribute to us and our cultures, similarly we have something to contribute to Indian culture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-90223324716821295902008-01-29T16:11:00.000+01:002008-01-29T16:11:00.000+01:00Adwaitaji, you sound as if you have not lived in I...<I>Adwaitaji, you sound as if you have not lived in India very long. </I><BR/><BR/>Betal, only <B>you</B> can provocate like that! You blew your cover! In my blog of January 18 you can read I spent about 130 months (close to 11 years) in India/Nepal so far, and not exactly in the MVT (Little Manhattan)<BR/><BR/><I>Ahhh. The stories I could tell about the ladies there. But this is not the place for that.</I><BR/><BR/>I did not claim that all Indian women are meek in private, no ma'm. I've been around.advaitadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-11161834275214660522008-01-28T19:28:00.000+01:002008-01-28T19:28:00.000+01:00A few quotes from Sudhir Kakar's Intimate Relation...A few quotes from Sudhir Kakar's Intimate Relations: Exploring Indian Sexuality, an analysis of sexuality in modern India. <BR/><BR/>One of the most depressing and insightful parts of the book is when the author examines Indian proverbs in regards to women. Misogyny is the common thread:<BR/><BR/>In most regions of the country, male folk wisdom offers overt reasons for man's perennial war with woman. It agrees in portraying the female sex as lacking both sexual morality and intelligence. <BR/><BR/>Punjabis and Gujaratis are of one mind that, "The intelligence of a woman is in her heels" (Strini akkal edi mā). Tamils maintain that, "No matter how educated a woman is, her intelligence is always of the lowest order," and Malayalis warn that "One who heeds the advice of a woman will be reduced to beggary" (Penachollu Kalkkunnavanu peruvali). <BR/><BR/>Folk sayings in the northern languages, however, place singularly greater emphasis on the employment of force and physical chastisement to correct perceived female shortcomings. "The places of a horse and a woman is under the thighs" (Ghoda aur aurat rān telē) we hear in Hindi. <BR/><BR/>And in Gujarati, "Barley and millet improve by addition of salt, women through a beating by a pestle" (Usī jawār bājrī musē nār pādhrī): "Better to keep the race of women under the heel of a shoe" (Rāndni jāt khāsdane talē rākhelij bhalī); (Mūrkh nāri ne nagārā kutyani kāmnā). <BR/><BR/>The proverbs in the South Indian languages, on the other hand, convey more a man's sense of helplessness and resignation in the face of general female cussedness and constant provocation. "Wind can be held in a bag, but not the tongue of a shrew," is common to both Kannada and Telugu. "Neither the husband nor the brother-in-law can control a pugnacious woman" goes another Telugu saying, while yet another admits even a king's helplessness in the face of female disputatiousness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-883322682500942432008-01-28T18:32:00.000+01:002008-01-28T18:32:00.000+01:00"There is an attribute called lajjA or bashfulness..."There is an attribute called lajjA or bashfulness in decent women. In the old days, pre-1960s, it was also still present in the west. Indian ladies still have that, and many other attributes, like chastity."<BR/><BR/>Adwaitaji, you sound as if you have not lived in India very long. <BR/><BR/>Ahhh. The stories I could tell about the ladies there. But this is not the place for that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-36193971090829059702008-01-28T16:40:00.000+01:002008-01-28T16:40:00.000+01:00There is an attribute called lajjA or bashfulness ...<< <I>There is an attribute called lajjA or bashfulness in decent women. In the old days, pre-1960s, it was also still present in the west. Indian ladies still have that, and many other attributes, like chastity.</I> >><BR/><BR/>Advaitadas I am sorry but you are being too simplistic here to be taken seriously: lajjA aside, there are other and more realistic reasons women bahave as they behave in these circles in India. Remaining on the side lines is also due to a culture of opression, ignorance, abuse, neglect, and violence. It is not a volunteer position sprung out of educated choice but it is one extricated. I think it would be more honest and responsible of you as an spokesperson for Indian women to address the whole of the issue instead of one isolated aspect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-75054801518900678692008-01-28T11:59:00.000+01:002008-01-28T11:59:00.000+01:00Question:I always see it being 'all men' the women...<I>Question:I always see it being 'all men' the women just stand around somewhere in the back and are barely noticed, while the men whoop it up and dance around all fancy free. I know that the women are prohibited from dancing around freely least they agitate the men, but honestly don't the women get agitated seeing all the men doing it?</I><BR/><BR/>There is an attribute called <B>lajjA</B> or bashfulness in decent women. In the old days, pre-1960s, it was also still present in the west. Indian ladies still have that, and many other attributes, like chastity.advaitadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-6224013757753285672008-01-27T23:14:00.000+01:002008-01-27T23:14:00.000+01:00Aren't the videos on Lake of Flowers from India?Aren't the videos on Lake of Flowers from India?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-11286656002974809432008-01-26T16:51:00.000+01:002008-01-26T16:51:00.000+01:00I'm not talking about India, I'm talking about wit...I'm not talking about India, I'm talking about within Gaudiya Vaishnavism....<BR/>hello, read the comments a little better before you respond..<BR/>DonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-41808373688934235442008-01-25T20:05:00.000+01:002008-01-25T20:05:00.000+01:00Question:I always see it being 'all men' the women...Question:I always see it being 'all men' the women just stand around somewhere in the back and are barely noticed, while the men whoop it up and dance around all fancy free. I know that the women are prohibited from dancing around freely least they agitate the men, but honestly don't the women get agitated seeing all the men doing it? <BR/><BR/>The women are not "prohibited" from dancing around in India, as far as my experience. I've seen quite a few enthusiastic female dancers, even in their old age. But it is a very much male dominated culture and religious scene there. I know what you mean by mostly men in the photos and videos. That reflects the male dominated culture and emphasis of that particular scene in Braj.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-58784528770901543582008-01-24T23:46:00.000+01:002008-01-24T23:46:00.000+01:00OK, since this topic is on misogyny, I would like ...OK, since this topic is on misogyny, I would like to ask this..<BR/>I love traditional Gaudiya Kirtan, I do... I listen to it all the time..<BR/>But when I watch clips of it say from Madhavas lake of flowers, I always see it being 'all men' the women just stand around somewhere in the back and are barely noticed, while the men whoop it up and dance around all fancy free. I know that the women are prohibited from dancing around freely least they agitate the men, but honestly don't the women get agitated seeing all the men doing it? Does that matter or is that just 'their nature' LOL..<BR/>namaskarAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-88937998981466391932008-01-24T14:14:00.000+01:002008-01-24T14:14:00.000+01:00I am however unhappy that you chose not to address...<I>I am however unhappy that you chose not to address the point of my previous comment regarding censorship and how critical views should be addressed robustly. That is the Gaudiya way, is it not?</I><BR/><BR/>That may be the Gaudiya way <B>you</B> learned. To my knowledge it is a namaparadha to preach to the faithless, the averse and those who do not listen.advaitadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-8580775610240151442008-01-24T13:33:00.000+01:002008-01-24T13:33:00.000+01:00I don't understand: If you believe anonymous respo...<I>I don't understand: If you believe anonymous responses to your blog are acts of cowardice, why do you offer the option? Just eliminate it!</I><BR/><BR/>Because sometimes a valuable comment is given which warrants a valuable response. Anons, however, generally have <B>no rights</B> here.advaitadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-85118543264116368452008-01-23T19:05:00.000+01:002008-01-23T19:05:00.000+01:00Well Advaitaji, I honestly think you are not doing...Well Advaitaji, I honestly think you are not doing yourself any favours with your censorship. Everyone is interested in the answers that you can provide to these real questions, including me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-24462477315320362292008-01-23T01:33:00.000+01:002008-01-23T01:33:00.000+01:00Thank you for your infinite mercy in publishing my...Thank you for your infinite mercy in publishing my previous comment. Perhaps you can extend your generosity to this comment also.<BR/><BR/>I am however unhappy that you chose not to address the point of my previous comment regarding censorship and how critical views should be addressed robustly. That is the Gaudiya way, is it not?<BR/><BR/>But then, it is sometimes in the nature of the devout to avoid questions and accuse questioners of faithlessness. Ore!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-154810539659950872008-01-22T23:23:00.000+01:002008-01-22T23:23:00.000+01:00You will find more rasiks amongst Indians that you...You will find more rasiks amongst Indians that you will amongst westerners. This may be what Malati was referring too.<BR/><BR/>However I do find it out that she finds Indians less "uptight" than westerners. Indians are some of the most uptight people I have ever met, including Indian vaishnavas. There is so much formality and protocal in their lives, what to speak of unhealthy repression of women and sexuality.<BR/><BR/>Strict Iskcon vaishnavas struggle with the same uptightness because they basically took the worst parts of Indian culture, gender bias, sexual repression and corporeal punishment of children, and ran with it to an even more extremem degree.<BR/><BR/>However I find the western vaishnavas who are not Iskcon oriented to be both more relaxed and more rasik. <BR/><BR/>Still, true rasik vaishnavas are found in India only at this time I feel.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-11835475829564339112008-01-22T20:19:00.000+01:002008-01-22T20:19:00.000+01:00I don't understand: If you believe anonymous respo...I don't understand: If you believe anonymous responses to your blog are acts of cowardice, why do you offer the option? Just eliminate it!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-56456857172915801172008-01-22T12:35:00.000+01:002008-01-22T12:35:00.000+01:00The gurus and acharyas who you so lovingly adore m...<I>The gurus and acharyas who you so lovingly adore met every challenge with a response: Vishvanatha Cakravarti's (partial) response to the Sakhi-bekhis was to write the Raga-vartma-candrika. Baladeva Vidyabhushana responded to the Ramanandi Vaishnavas by writing a Gaudiya commentary on the Vedanta sutra, he did not run away or tell them to stop asking disturbing questions.</I><BR/><BR/>1. I find it quite bold for an anon to accuse anyone else of cowardice.<BR/>2. I never ran away but I do wish to avoid the namaparadha of preaching to the faithless. Thus each comment is judged on its own merit, and rewarded with publication or sanctioned by blockage.advaitadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-54467916826805911332008-01-22T12:12:00.000+01:002008-01-22T12:12:00.000+01:00But I still hold my position that westerners are m...<I>But I still hold my position that westerners are more interested in the essence of GVism compared to Indians. We westerners are not impared by the culture factor.......I have a more agreeable lifestyle in the West than the Indian one. I think Indians are way behind Westerners as far as lifestyle. Truth is, Indians want to copy the West because their own model has failed. </I><BR/><BR/>You are generalising about Indians. I dont know how many Gaudiya Vaishnavas you associated<BR/>with in India, or whether you speak about the average beefeating Indian Sunday-feast guest<BR/>in LA or NY. There's a billion Hindus out there and millions of Gaudiya Vaishnavas as well.<BR/><BR/><I>....I am sad that Advaita only repeats shastra literally, stopping short of offering his own God given insights. If he does not put his own soul in it, this to me is the real act of, um sorry, cowardice. Really, I don't mean to offend, we are ll cowards here and there, but for a GV, he has to be brave enough to say that, yes, I revere my previous acaryas to the death, but by all means I am to have my own realization of what they thaught, my openning up for revelation, otherwise what is the meaning of my own existence? I am to be like them dammit!! I think Gaudiya Vaisnavism is about learning how to stand on your own feet while loving your Masters with ever increasing depth</I><BR/><BR/>How do I take the beloved acaryas non-literal please? Thy were already so kind to clarify<BR/>the shastras with patient commentaries, ad now this should <B>again</B> be interpreted?<BR/>I still got no concrete proposals, or theoretical ones for that matter.advaitadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-73365269326963857572008-01-21T19:31:00.000+01:002008-01-21T19:31:00.000+01:00I am not the anon who made the comments above, but...I am not the anon who made the comments above, but I am however disturbed to learn of this attitude of censorship by some other commenters. If statements are made that provoke questions that may or may not be uncomfortable, it is the responsibility of the devotee to answer them appropriately instead of wielding an iron rod of chastisement.<BR/><BR/>The gurus and acharyas who you so lovingly adore met every challenge with a response: Vishvanatha Cakravarti's (partial) response to the Sakhi-bekhis was to write the Raga-vartma-candrika. Baladeva Vidyabhushana responded to the Ramanandi Vaishnavas by writing a Gaudiya commentary on the Vedanta sutra, he did not run away or tell them to stop asking disturbing questions.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-72560096871522812342008-01-21T17:52:00.000+01:002008-01-21T17:52:00.000+01:00I agree with malati dasi, these anonymous people a...I agree with malati dasi, these anonymous people are cowards, just big babies..<BR/><BR/>namaskar,<BR/><BR/>jeejAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-24834998177825087132008-01-21T17:07:00.000+01:002008-01-21T17:07:00.000+01:00I would premise that the rate is very very high fo...<< <I> I would premise that the rate is very very high for westerners At the most most westerners are Jnanis. </I> >><BR/><BR/>Regarding ratios and statistics on fall downs and the such, the fact is that no one has come up with factual definitions here, what to speak of numbers. So there is little sense in making affirmations one way or another here. But I still hold my position that westerners are more interested in the essence of GVism compared to Indians. We westerners are not impared by the culture factor. And you got me wrong, I don't do it for the lifestyle. The lifestyle is precisely what I couldn't care less for, I have a more agreeable lifestyle in the West than the Indian one. I think Indians are way behind Westerners as far as lifestyle. Truth is, Indians want to copy the West because their own model has failed. But Western good standards of living are also doomed due to its visceral unsustainability. The essence of GV is what interests me, and this is why I am sad that Advaita only repeats shastra literally, stopping short of offering his own God given insights. If he does not put his own soul in it, this to me is the real act of, um sorry, cowardice. Really, I don't mean to offend, we are ll cowards here and there, but for a GV, he has to be brave enough to say that, yes, I revere my previous acaryas to the death, but by all means I am to have my own realization of what they thaught, my openning up for revelation, otherwise what is the meaning of my own existence? I am to be like them dammit!! I think Gaudiya Vaisnavism is about learning how to stand on your own feet while loving your Masters with ever increasing depth.<BR/><BR/>Anyhow, thanks for your graces.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com