tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post2674192783998453237..comments2024-03-07T19:16:51.653+01:00Comments on madangopal: Līlāadvaitadashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-31711606028717814332008-02-28T21:48:00.000+01:002008-02-28T21:48:00.000+01:00""bhakti is equal" but you acknowledge that "the 5..."<I>"bhakti is equal" but you acknowledge that "the 5 rasas are unequal" - so which one is it? Why don't you prove your flowery words with some evidence from shastra."</I><BR/><BR/>If you go back and read carefully, Advaita, my "flowery" words were that you project inequality <I>like that of this world</I> in to the 5 rasas. Now, understand that distinctions in the spiritual world are not the same as here. Here they sometimes are called <I>inequalities</I>. So there is no contradicition in the statement that there is distinctions in the 5 rasas and yet bhakti is equal wherever it appears. As far as shastric evidence for the equanimity of bhakti, I have already given a couple of samples: Bg. 9.32 and 5.18. <BR/><BR/>Regarding the "spiritual" distinction of the 5 rasas, it seems to me you need understand a bit more about rasa yourself. The very concept of <I>bhakti rasa</I> implies a state of consciousness where there is no wanting but pure establishment. Thus there is no question of an hierarchy of demands and supplies where a rasa may not be satisfying enough to Krsna and therefore "lower". From the point of view of tasting, each rasa is complete in itself. The distinction is made from the neutral poin of view, that is, from our point of view when observers. As soon as one is immersed in any one of the rasas, there is no question of perception of anything but the rasa itself. So no question of distinctions. This is why in general rasa is refered to as theory: It can only be completely "learnt" when it blossoms in the heart as a permanet state of being. But the conundrum is that as soon as one <I>experiences</I> rasa, it ceases to be a matter of study; the neutral element falls away and there is no longer a "need", so to speak, for such study. Thus, from the point of view of distinction, it remains a theory. But as an actual event, rasa is distinction and equality simultaneously. Hence, our acaryas advise us to find our true indentity in bedha-abedha exploits.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-55589487391804207532008-02-28T15:29:00.000+01:002008-02-28T15:29:00.000+01:00Govinda-nandini, you contradict yourself, saying T...Govinda-nandini, you contradict yourself, saying <BR/><BR/><I>Thus there is equality in bhakti, and BECAUSE bhakti is the truly abiding substance, as opposed to the relativity of circumstances, it overrules differentiation. This is the meaning of equal vision. Moreover, you are wrong in projecting differentiation like that found in this world in to the 5 rasas. The 5 rasas are unequal because BHAKTI so wishes.</I><BR/><BR/>"bhakti is equal" but you acknowledge that "the 5 rasas are unequal" - so which one is it? Why don't you prove your flowery words with some evidence from shastra.advaitadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-91879259558964355112008-02-27T19:43:00.000+01:002008-02-27T19:43:00.000+01:00"Govinda-nandini, sorry, that isnt completely righ..."Govinda-nandini, sorry, that isnt completely right either. You are mixing spirituality (adhikara for bhakti is indeed for everyone) with material circumstances (rich, poor, bad, good etc). Furthermore, there is no equality either in spirituality other than adhikara-wise. There are five rasas, which are not equal, plus there is our maryada duty - see CC Antya 4, Mahaprabhu teaching Jagadananda Pandit and Sanatan Goswami. He speaks of etiquette, both vyavahara (materially) and paramartha (spiritually). There too, some are Guru, while some are sisya."<BR/><BR/>The problem with this line of reasoning Adwaita, is that who, or which group, is considered "more equal" than others.<BR/><BR/>I may assert that white European descent culture is superior to other cultures and races, and thereby "more equal" or entitled to a status of respect. Indeed, there have been many arguments made along these lines for hundreds of years. <BR/><BR/>A black African descent can argue however that ancient Egypt and Ehtiopia were the first civilized cultures and thus the African descent peoples are "superior" or "more equal".<BR/><BR/>Indians also have some credence to their "superior culture" claims, as do the Arabs. Where does the buck stop?<BR/><BR/>A person may have been born into a wealthy and intellectually gifted family, does that make her "more equal" than the "less fortunate" masses around her?<BR/><BR/>So what is considered "higher", "lower", "moreequal", etc is relative. Hence the strive for "equal oppurtunity" for all. That means, differences are acknowledged but the fundamental rights to education and oppurtunity for all are put in place in an effort to avoid unneccessary discrimination and bias.<BR/><BR/>One group need not be facilitated at the expense and exploitation of another.<BR/><BR/>The best bet is to make oppurtunities for growth and expansion available to all. Those who will take it and do something with it will naturally rise to the top.<BR/><BR/>It is a noble cause, if even not yet fully realized.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-17298594366153045252008-02-27T14:47:00.000+01:002008-02-27T14:47:00.000+01:00"Govinda-nandini, sorry, that isnt completely righ..."Govinda-nandini, sorry, that isnt completely right either. You are mixing spirituality (adhikara for bhakti is indeed for everyone) with material circumstances (rich, poor, bad, good etc). Furthermore, there is no equality either in spirituality other than adhikara-wise. There are five rasas, which are not equal, plus there is our maryada duty - see CC Antya 4, Mahaprabhu teaching Jagadananda Pandit and Sanatan Goswami. He speaks of etiquette, both vyavahara (materially) and paramartha (spiritually). There too, some are Guru, while some are sisya."<BR/><BR/><BR/>Advaitadas, adhikar MEANS circumstances. It is practically synonymous with differentiation. Bhakti, however, is always equal whether it is to be found in a highly qualified individual or less qualified individual. Bhakti is an entity in it/herself, independent enough to not respond to adhikar. Thus there is equality in bhakti, and BECAUSE bhakti is the truly abiding substance, as opposed to the relativity of circumstances, it overrules differentiation. This is the meaning of equal vision. Moreover, you are wrong in projecting differentiation like that found in this world in to the 5 rasas. The 5 rasas are unequal because BHAKTI so wishes. That is, differentiation springs from Bhakti for the sake of more bhakti! Differences in this world, however, are meant to be gradually eliminated for the sake of the establishment of bhakti. Thus, one who insists in seeing the differences in this world as real, only sees half of the picture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-3171397152794558952008-02-27T12:27:00.000+01:002008-02-27T12:27:00.000+01:00"jayati jayati vrndaranyam etan murareh priyatamam..."jayati jayati vrndaranyam etan murareh priyatamam ati-sadhusvanta-vaikuntha-vasat ramayati sa sada gah palayan yatra gopih svarita-madhura-venur vardhayan prema rase<BR/><BR/>Jaya Jaya to Sri Vrindavan Dhama, shere Sri Murari enjoys residing more than He does in the hearts of sadhus or even in Vaikuntha! Where He forever tends cows, and where, by playing sweet melodies on the flute, He increases the gopis' amorous love for Him!!!"<BR/><BR/>Beautiful. That is more like Gaudiya Vaishnava talk (by this, I'm not suggesting that we shut ourselves in ivory towers and die to the world outside, at least not at our present imperfect stage).<BR/><BR/>Radhe RadheAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-50510412522630337052008-02-27T12:14:00.000+01:002008-02-27T12:14:00.000+01:00Govinda-nandini, sorry, that isnt completely right...Govinda-nandini, sorry, that isnt completely right either. You are mixing spirituality (adhikara for bhakti is indeed for everyone) with material circumstances (rich, poor, bad, good etc). Furthermore, there is no equality either in spirituality other than adhikara-wise. There are five rasas, which are not equal, plus there is our maryada duty - see CC Antya 4, Mahaprabhu teaching Jagadananda Pandit and Sanatan Goswami. He speaks of etiquette, both vyavahara (materially) and paramartha (spiritually). There too, some are Guru, while some are sisya.advaitadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-40077400437329801622008-02-26T06:28:00.000+01:002008-02-26T06:28:00.000+01:00Much has been written on the position of Indian wo...Much has been written on the position of Indian women on this blog, and nobody in their right mind would go on to blind themselves to some of the self-evident truths that are undeniably featured in the writings of the two Western-born Behenjis. However, it should be recalled that in the traditional Hindu milieu, men are enjoined to look at women as expansions of Maa Durga, and uncountable references to ladies in ancient and medieval Sanskrit literature attest to the majesty of womanhood, whilst at the same time stressing that females are way better-off under the CARE of their fathers, husbands or sons. The fact that far too many modern Bharatiya males act like sex-starved beasts at the slightest contact with or sight of women is certainly testament to the extent to which the soil once treaded by Krishna and Mahaprabhu has degenerated, more due to the influence of Kali-yuga than anything else. I refuse to totally blame Samskriti for this, however. The roots of this particular social ill are multiple, and the subordinate status of South Asian females in bygone ages is for sure one of the causes. I think that Sripada Tripurari Maharaja's latest Sanga on the Manu-smrti does furnish an excellent perspective on this fascinating issue. I am thus reposting the article here, which I reckon quite a few would find worthwhile. Maharaja's presentation is illuminating, to say the least. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Women and the Laws of Manu<BR/><BR/>Q & A with Swami B. V. Tripurari<BR/><BR/>“While Manusmriti stresses socio-religious life, it does so with a view to help qualify humanity for the pursuit of essential spirituality. Thus there is a thread of spiritual truth that runs through it that applies to all times."<BR/><BR/>Q. I read some really horrible things from a Hindu book called the Manusmriti [Manu-samhita], which contains the class-conscious rules of varnasrama dharma. One of the most egregious of these rules is that women should never be given freedom. They are meant to be always under the control of men. Furthermore, I read that Srila Prabhupada is among the few modern gurus who accept this book as authoritative. When I read all this I became so terribly sad as I had the greatest belief in Prabhupada, but now this belief is shattered. My question is how any person with a conscience can accept this frightful book as authoritative? Do you accept Manusmriti as authoritative? <BR/><BR/>A. Thought to be the oldest of the dharma-sastras, the Manusmriti is often described as the law book of ancient Hindu society. The text deals with four subjects: the origin of the world, the sources of dharma, the rules of the four varnas (social orders) and four asramas (spiritual orders), and karma-yoga. The laws found therein are obviously not modern. Thus to be fair, they should not be compared to modern laws, but rather to socio-religious rules that pertain to an ancient culture. <BR/><BR/>The laws of Manu made sense to religious people living centuries ago in India, and if we had lived in that bygone culture it is unlikely that we would have found the text unacceptable. Nor would adherence to its essential precepts have inhibited our spiritual progress. Why? Because for the most part dharma-sastras such as Manusmriti address relative socio-religious concerns, and true spirituality transcends such concerns. However, while Manusmriti stresses socio-religious life, it does so with a view to help qualify humanity for the pursuit of essential spirituality. Thus there is a thread of spiritual truth that runs through it that applies to all times. Ultimately this thread is what was important to Srila Prabhupada, Swami Vivekananda, Rabindranath Tagore, Paramahansa Yogananda, Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan (a former president of India), and other spiritual and religious leaders who often spoke highly of the text. Even Nietzsche said, "Put down the Bible and pick up Manusmriti." (The Will to Power, Vol.1)<BR/><BR/>Though Srila Prabhupada more readily identified with social standards of times gone by, some of which fit better with the words of Manusmriti, in practice he embraced whatever in his judgment was helpful for performing and disseminating Krsna bhakti, some of which did not conform to the injunctions of the dharma-sastras. That some of Manusmriti's centuries-old injunctions do not resonate with people living in our times is to be expected. For that matter, no Hindus today adhere to the text more than in some small part, and most scholars believe that the laws of Manu were never universally enforced anywhere in India. <BR/><BR/>Still, practically all Hindu historians and teachers accept its authenticity in the same sense that Srila Prabhupada did, as one of the authentic texts of the Hindu dharma-sastras. In doing so they promote what they consider appropriate in Manusmriti and more or less disregard the rest. The founder of Arya Samaj, Swami Dayanand Saraswati, a noteworthy 19th century campaigner for women's rights, cites Manu's laws hundreds of times in his writings. In his opinion, verses highly critical of women and the lower classes (sudras) are not Vedic at all but interpolations introduced later by the corrupted brahminical class. Another scholar, Dr. Surendra Kumar, claims that out of a total of 2,685 verses in the present Manusmriti, only 1,214 are authentic or can be confirmed by the Vedas, the other 1,471 being interpolations. <BR/><BR/>Therefore, in consideration of its overall content and the culture in which it was written, it would be inappropriate for a Hindu to disrespect Manusmriti in its entirety. Better one should try to understand it in terms of its historicity and its spirituality, knowing full well that religious laws are often relative to time and circumstance. Indeed, many injunctions in our times accepted as appropriate by the religious and secular alike will likely be considered inappropriate by future generations.<BR/><BR/>By contrasting the Manusmriti with books and beliefs from other ancient cultures, one can see that it is hardly unique in its strictures against women. For example, in classical Athens, the city heralded as the birthplace of democracy, women took no part in the democratic process. After marriage they were largely confined to the women's section of the house and were forbidden to eat with or speak to men other than their husbands. The Minnesota State University Museum tells it like this: "The status of Athenian woman in Greek society was minimal. By comparison to present-day standards, Athenian women were only a small step above slaves by the 5th century B.C." About teaching women to read and write, the Greek playwright Menander wrote, "What a terrible thing to do! Like feeding a vile snake on more poison." Other authors and philosophers had similar quips about women. Summing up the Athenian view of women, Greek philosopher and scientist Aristotle, student of Plato and tutor to Alexander the Great, wrote, "The male is by nature superior and the female inferior…the one rules and the other is ruled." <BR/><BR/>Therefore, as we appreciate the positive contribution of other ancient books and leave aside the rest, we should similarly appreciate the Manusmriti. In this light, the Catholic Encyclopedia, which is no friend of Hinduism, says: "Yet, with all this [restrictions on women, etc.], the ethical teachings of the 'Laws of Manu' is very high, embracing almost every form of moral obligation recognized in the Christian religion."<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, although Manusmriti, like other patriarchal religious law books of its time, does prescribe the subservience of women to men, it condemns men who are derelict in their duty to care for and protect the women under their jurisdiction. Manu also glorifies women considerably, and taken in context with his rules to honor and never violate women, his laws pertaining to them seem progressive in comparison to those of many other ancient cultures. For example, Manusmriti (3:55-57) says, "Those who seek great prosperity and happiness should never inflict pain on women. Where women are honored, in that family great men are born, but where they are not honored, all acts are fruitless. Where women pass their days in misery and sorrow because of the misdeeds of their husbands, that family soon entirely perishes, but where they are happy because of the good conduct of their husbands, the family continually prospers."<BR/><BR/>Most importantly, Sri Krsna explains in Srimad Bhagavatam (11.20.9) that one is obliged to adhere to the smriti of the dharma-sastra only to the extent that one has not awakened faith in hearing and chanting about him. This is also the conclusion of Bhagavad-gita as Krsna emphatically tells us therein to forego the dharma-sastra and take exclusive shelter of him: sarva dharman parityaja mam ekam saranam vraja (Bg 18.66).<BR/><BR/>Thus a soul surrendered to Krsna (saranagata) need not be concerned with dharma-sastra. One serious about Krsna bhakti need only be concerned with the smriti of the Vaisnavas, such as Hari-bhakti-vilasa. Furthermore, this should be done under the guidance of a guru competent to advise one which injunctions therein apply to one's situation. No sect of Gaudiya Vaisnavas that I know of follows all the injunctions of Hari-bhakti-vilasa. Rather than trying to follow everything in Hari-bhaki-vilasa verbatim, one should under good guidance extract its essential principles and apply them to life in the modern world according to time and circumstance.<BR/><BR/>As Gaudiya Vaisnavas are taught to take the essence from Hari-bhakti-vilasa, those treading the karma-marg should be encouraged to embrace the essence of Manusmriti's injunctions rather than try to follow the letter of its law, which would be impossible to do in today's world anyway. For that matter, in essence the dharma-sastra ultimately points in the direction of Hari-bhakti, for the perfection of adherence to dharma is determined by the extent to which such adherence satisfies Hari (God): samsiddhir hari tosanam.<BR/><BR/>Finally, regarding varnasrama dharma, it is not about taking away people's freedom. It is ultimately about freeing people from material existence. By studying the precepts of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, which could very well be considered the New Testament of Hinduism, one can understand varnasrama dharma and at the same time be in a position to transcend it altogether in the context of the culture of prema dharma, the path of love.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-1131386291011852132008-02-25T19:13:00.000+01:002008-02-25T19:13:00.000+01:00Adwaitaji,You may be confusing "equality" with "sa...Adwaitaji,<BR/><BR/>You may be confusing "equality" with "sameness".<BR/><BR/>True, we are all suffering and enjoying according to our many activities from past and present lives. Hence we will all look, act, talk and think differently. No two individuals are the same. But we all suffer pain and we all enjoy pleasure, to some extent or other. <BR/><BR/>However, "equality" as it is used in Govindanandini's context, and the general context of the word today does not mean "sameness".<BR/><BR/>It refers to the noble pursuit of humane treatment for all humans, and oppurtunities for self-expression and reaching one's potential.<BR/><BR/>We can say that the present concept falls short in that it generally does not include animals and other species of life outside of humans, unless you're a member of PETA or the Jain religion or something along those lines. However, it's a beginning and a very good one, I think.<BR/><BR/>That being said, nobody is claiming that we are all the "same" and similarly endowed with the same kind of intelligence or same kind of social skills or same ability to make $$$ or same kind of atheletic prowess, etc.<BR/><BR/>Vikram,<BR/><BR/>I, like you am growing tired of discussing the social ills of India. If I'm not part of the solution then I'm part of the problem. Talk is cheap. I need to walk my talk. So I will end discussion on that here and up my ante to the next phase - action.<BR/><BR/>Like you, I am also not ashamed of my country, culture, family and the methods with which they raised me. Maybe I was sheltered but I feel I grew up with pretty decent values that are worthy to be shared with others who may not have had the good fortune to be born into or raised in conscious environments. <BR/><BR/>At the end of the day, despite the social ills that plaugue Uttar Pradesh, who can deny the bhajan-shakti that has been reposited in Braj Dham and which can still be felt to this day? What to speak of the lilas performed there even earlier?<BR/><BR/>jayati jayati vrndaranyam etan murareh priyatamam ati-sadhusvanta-vaikuntha-vasat ramayati sa sada gah palayan yatra gopih svarita-madhura-venur vardhayan prema rase<BR/><BR/>Jaya Jaya to Sri Vrindavan Dhama, shere Sri Murari enjoys residing more than He does in the hearts of sadhus or even in Vaikuntha! Where He forever tends cows, and where, by playing sweet melodies on the flute, He increases the gopis' amorous love for Him!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-60365891493972462832008-02-25T17:18:00.000+01:002008-02-25T17:18:00.000+01:00"I noticed this and want to make a brief comment h...<I>"I noticed this and want to make a brief comment here - this goes against even the most basic Vedic knowledge or common sense. kAraNaM guNo sango'syat sad-asad yoni janmasu "As a result of attachment to a certain culture (guNa) the soul takes birth in good or bad species." (Bhagavad Gita 13.22) There is no equality anywhere, never has been and never will be. In the Vedanta Sutra it is asked whether God is partial because some people suffer and others enjoy, and the answer is that karma is beginningless.. There will always be rich, poor, good, bad, high or low persons.</I><BR/><BR/>I beg to disagree, equallity has been the central quest of humanity since ever. Absolutely NO ONE wants to be ruled against his/her will. This is a fact and this is the real common sense enlightened human beings have undertood. <BR/><BR/>Our beloved Krishna informs us in Bg. that a saint sees all with EQUAL vision - samyat. Is the saint a sentimental silly man/woman we pompously bow to while in his/her presence, for the sake of sadhacara, but then afterwards we foxily resume our businesses of being mysoginist, racist, castist, scriptural-fundamentalist, etc? No, of course not. We honor the saint by BECOMING like him/her. That is, we too must see all with EQUAL vision. And having thus The Vision, we act again as per Krshna's recommendation in Bg. where he says (to Arjuna) that his loving service is EQUALLY available to sudhras, vaisyas, women and outcasts. So indeed these differences do exist but they are transformed in the presence of pure LOVE. Indeed, when one has The Vision, these differences become a stone upon which the freed jiva soul steps to attain his/her beloved Krsna. Queen Kunti was grateful for difficulties, because she understood that the only reason for difficulties in our lives is that they are to veer us towards Krsna. <BR/><BR/>Please note Advaitadas that attachment and repulse are two sides of the same coin. The problem with a fellow who counts too much on his "high" birth as a male brahmin is that, due to said birth, very likely he will become proud and abusive and so forth , and then go down the social scale in future lives, and round and round, like that. What you would do well clarifying to your readers is that karma is beginningless much in the same way circular thinking (this is "high" and that is "low") leads ultimately, well, nowhere. Thus a real seer, while retaining the concept of distinctions, absorbs the further understanding that there is a reason for such seemingly senseless samsara. <BR/><BR/>So lastly, Advaita, God indeed is partial. He is partial to his devotees. And then again, he says that ultimately everyone follows his path, so ultimately everyone is his devotee. There is no other reason for anybody's life events, life after life, in this or any other world, than equal opportunity for service to Krsna.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-8084937323061024422008-02-25T13:40:00.000+01:002008-02-25T13:40:00.000+01:00But the fact is that the West is undegoing a proce...<I>But the fact is that the West is undegoing a process of finding a solution for the quest for human equality in all levels.</I><BR/><BR/>I noticed this and want to make a brief comment here - this goes against even the most basic Vedic knowledge or common sense. <I>kAraNaM guNo sango'syat sad-asad yoni janmasu</I> "As a result of attachment to a certain culture (guNa) the soul takes birth in <B>good</B> or <B>bad</B> species." (Bhagavad Gita 13.22) There is no equality anywhere, never has been and never will be. In the Vedanta Sutra it is asked whether God is partial because some people suffer and others enjoy, and the answer is that karma is beginningless.. There will always be rich, poor, good, bad, high or low persons.advaitadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-58976950060638975682008-02-25T12:56:00.000+01:002008-02-25T12:56:00.000+01:00"I have been sexually harrassed in India countless..."I have been sexually harrassed in India countless times.<BR/><BR/>Does this mean anything to you two guys or not?"<BR/><BR/>Yes, Mataji/Didi (whichever one you prefer), it does revolt me, and I'm not just saying it for effect. Indeed, if it had occurred in front of me, whoever was responsible would've taken my fist on his mug. And I mean it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-48957281957340457422008-02-25T12:51:00.000+01:002008-02-25T12:51:00.000+01:00"One more thing..."Just as an ultimate reply to th..."One more thing..."<BR/><BR/>Just as an ultimate reply to the last few comments here. I am not a Western Indian; I was born and bred on the island of Mauritius, over 70% of the people of which are of Indian descent (49% Hindu, 18% Muslim and some Christians as well). I have spent a lengthy period span studying and working in Britain, but it's been quite a few years now since I returned to my native clime and folks. Also, I utterly condemn what happened to Lila like any sane person would. At the same time, I have NEVER, EVER, pretended that all was peachy in Indian culture or any other culture for that matter. However, I don't have to take as gospel truth analyses which I don't see much sense in. Each individual has the prerogative to look at things in light of his or her own psychology, intelligence and conditioning. There is seldom an absolute gloss to be had on such issues, as these are the happenings of the temporal, relative world, hence, if one wants to be really generous about it all, it could be posited that one's take is just as valid as another's, as we are here dealing with not one but several angles of vision. I hope that this little bit reconciles the conflicting points of view and concludes the discussion to the satisfaction of one and all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-57422921200296561292008-02-25T12:31:00.000+01:002008-02-25T12:31:00.000+01:00However I have never met an Indian Vaishnava from ...<I>However I have never met an Indian Vaishnava from the West actually go back to India and live in a Dham. Have you?</I><BR/><BR/>You haven't, but many have...<BR/>Satya Narayan was in Detroit, now Vrindavan, there are also Bhakti Caru Swami (who lived in Germany), Raghavananda Das (USA), Sarvabhavana, etc. etc.<BR/>In short, you are grossly generalizing.advaitadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-82064680516496541712008-02-24T01:17:00.000+01:002008-02-24T01:17:00.000+01:00I doubt that the guy indeed raped Lila, but since ...<I>I doubt that the guy indeed raped Lila, but since the family is white the accusation will be accepted as a fact by all. I say again the two were sharing a romantic affair and something went sour. Forget about what the mother is saying. Its hard to lose a child, but I dont think she was an innocent little girl as they are trying to portray, who was raped by this super-lusty Indian.</I><BR/><BR/>So...he was capable of murder and suicide but too saintly to stoop to committing rape?<BR/><BR/>If people are left to conclude that he's guilty, it is due to his own actions, not the color of his victim's skin. He chose to murder his accuser rather than face her in court. Behavior like that makes one appear guilty in any culture.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-79036295066785708372008-02-23T19:49:00.000+01:002008-02-23T19:49:00.000+01:00One more thing...Govindanandini, it will be intere...One more thing...<BR/><BR/>Govindanandini, it will be interesting to see how the two Indian gentleman here address this;<BR/><BR/><BR/>"Mr. Ramsoondur,<BR/><BR/>You fiercely defend Indian culture but where are you spending your precious human life: in the West. If you ask Westerners whether they would swap their western lifestyles for an Indian life style, there is great chance most would reply "no, thank you, I prefer to live as a westerner, defects and all." But if you ask Indians if they would adopt a western life style, many are sure to reply, "yes, I like to try". And in fact, many Indians are trying, inside and outside of India. Why are Indians copying the West if it is so beneath their standards?"<BR/><BR/>.................. Afterall, many western vaishnavas give up a very good life on many levels to take up a life of (some sort of) bhakti in India's holy dhams, undergoing severe austerities as well as risking their lives in order to try their relative best at sadhu sanga and bhajan. However I have never met an Indian Vaishnava from the West actually go back to India and live in a Dham. Have you?<BR/><BR/>Perhaps the answer is $$$.<BR/><BR/>But wouldn't the draw of a spiritually focused life, no matter how hard draw western Indians (vaishnavas) as well? <BR/><BR/>Wouldn't the pull of "great Indian culture" pull even ordinary western Indians back to the "desh".<BR/><BR/>Wouldn't the magnet of woman's glorious position in Indian culture suck millions of Indian woman scattered throughout the globe back home? <BR/><BR/>(Actually, the allure of cheap labor in the form of nokars (maids) does in fact draw them. Can't blame them there, if they are the ones doing the majority of the cooking and cleaning at home, despite having outside jobs).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-10819813280222569212008-02-23T19:20:00.000+01:002008-02-23T19:20:00.000+01:00"I doubt that the guy indeed raped Lila, but since..."I doubt that the guy indeed raped Lila, but since the family is white the accusation will be accepted as a fact by all. I say again the two were sharing a romantic affair and something went sour. "<BR/><BR/>Perhaps she DID have a relationship the man and perhaps she WAS STILL RAPED.<BR/><BR/>There is also such a thing as "marital rape" although I do not know if it is recognized in Indian law.<BR/><BR/>Whether or not this girl has a relationship with this man or not is of no consequence. What happened was a gruesome crime. <BR/><BR/>Although I myself would not willingly enter into a relationship with an Indian man, if she did so, of her own accord, that is her personal choice. I have nothing against dating or teen romance.<BR/><BR/>How would this take away the issue of the crimes we know did happen - murder and possibly rape.<BR/><BR/>I am not an ISKCON member and therefore I do not agree with their policy of giving only 2 rupees to all temples except for their's . <BR/><BR/>At the same time I am not overly impressed with Indian society. Not any more impressed than I am with any other society, that is. <BR/><BR/>While there are things about Indian cultures I do appreciate, I am not starry eyed.<BR/><BR/>As far as Vikram's sharing with us that the women in his family were "hit on", I would like to ask what he means by "hit on"?<BR/><BR/>If by hit on you mean approached and politely asked out for a date, I have nothing against that at all. That is not "eve teasing", nor is it "sexual harrassment", it is normal.<BR/><BR/>By eve teasing and sexual harrassment I am referring to abuse and crimes, at least what should be recognized as crimes.<BR/><BR/>Like you said, you are a male of Indian descent, so your experiences and thus opinions of India will be drastically different from mine.<BR/><BR/>I have been sexually harrassed in India countless times.<BR/><BR/>Does this mean anything to you two guys or not?<BR/><BR/>And I have been asked out on dates by men too - there is a huge difference.<BR/><BR/>Why do we westerners go to India?<BR/><BR/>For sadhu sanga.<BR/><BR/>What else?<BR/><BR/>And even our Indian gurus warn us about the local guys!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-73284776447541897222008-02-23T14:38:00.000+01:002008-02-23T14:38:00.000+01:00govindanandiniji, I reside in Mauritius, a Hindu-m...govindanandiniji, I reside in Mauritius, a Hindu-majority island, not the West, where I have lived in the past. As for the rest of your comment, sorry, time is too precious, and I shall respond at some other time, if possible (I don't promise to).<BR/><BR/>"This is pure yavana, nothing but yavana culture."<BR/><BR/>"But thankfully there are there are exceptions like Adwaita and other gems like him, who do not display this racism/ superiority complex. Thats why I maintain warm feelings towards people like them."<BR/><BR/>"There is a reason Chaitanya and Krishna appeared in India, in spite of the crimes and criminals, and not in Europe. Think about it."<BR/><BR/>You've said it all, mitra. Let them ponder over it, that is, if they've got the requisite humility and buddhi.<BR/><BR/>"I also have gleaned that covering of a woman's hair (and possibly even the face) was something that possibly could have been existent in South Asia prior to the advent of Islam."<BR/><BR/>This is utter nonsense. <BR/><BR/>The gist of some posts here is really rich, I find. The people of Bharata were composing the Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas at a time when the ancestors of today's Europeans were still grappling in their caves, with hardly any accoutrement at all. This says it all, and little else needs to be added in that regard. I surely thank Krishna from the bottom of my heart that he endowed me with my Indianness, which if I'm careful to PROPERLY utilise, will certainly bring me closer to the gates of Vaikuntha some day. Bharata is not known for no reason as Deva-bhumi, and nothing or no-one can alter that fact. As for those who feel uncomfortable with this painful reality, gosh darn, tough, the caravan rolls on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-74226156096946780742008-02-23T14:16:00.000+01:002008-02-23T14:16:00.000+01:00"And non-Asians have zero humanity?This is both un..."And non-Asians have zero humanity?<BR/><BR/>This is both untrue and inflammatory."<BR/><BR/>They certainly have a deficiency of it as far as valuing elders and seniors are concerned, and having spent much of my adult life in Europe, there is nobody on earth who would succeed in convincing me otherwise. If that sounds invidious to you, just too bad. I maintain my position.<BR/><BR/>"This is just my personal reality and no amount of poetry can convince me otherwise, nor should it even try."<BR/><BR/>My experience of India is obviously going to be different from yours, as I'm Indian-bodied and male, so no surprise there. I'm not going to respond at nearly every paragraph of yours I have done earlier for the simple reason that I have got neither the time nor the proclivity for that, since it's all prajalpa, a blasted waste of time. Suffice to say that for someone who has the gall to accuse others of seeing things in black-and-white, it is only as a response to my last post that you have been forced somewhat into admitting platitudes that everybody is well aware of such as "there is good and bad in all cultures", etc. Earlier on, it was all the stereotypical garbage that your ilk love to vomit about other peoples and exotic social contexts. No, anon, like all thinking people, I try to look at the big picture of everything in existence, and that can only mean adopting a "grey" vision.<BR/><BR/>And for your information, my interest with India is mainly with the religious and spiritual side of it. I don't go there in order to delve into the many societal problems that Indians face, and neither would I ever squander my time and energy in such a pointless pursuit. I should point out, however, that NO female member of my family has ever complained of sexual harassment of the order of magnitude that you and your cohorts complain of. Yes, my wife is from India, and she did have guys hitting on her when she was studying at Panjab University several years ago, in the same way that my female cousins both in England and Mauritius have had - so nothing special about eve-teasing in educated circles in India's cities. Maybe Vraja is home to a host of illiterates, which perhaps explains some of the attitudes you decry. Further, neither of my wife's three sisters in Punjab nor another cousin of mine who read Microbiology at St. Xavier's in Mumbai some years ago, have ever had to contend with anything approximating the gloomy picture which you paint.<BR/><BR/>As for the India Shining hogwash, never did I buy into that nor will I ever. The so-called modernisation of India is a euphemistic way of expressing the fundamental truth that Indians have lost their ways and are mindlessly aping, rather clumsily I should say, the materialistic humanism of the soulless West. Now, I'm not going to waste myself attempting to halt that process. This is the age of hypocrisy after all, and I'd prefer to heed what a certain Western Vaishnava sadhaka typed on his blog not long back, i.e. that the scriptures tell us to basically mind our own business and not indulge our minds and senses with gossip and themes that are not favourable to spiritual progress. The search for God is a path that ultimately leads one to withdraw from the outside world and retreat into our own selves. That you still managed to find time to culturally analyse modern materialistic India (in light of your own biased, limited perspective of course) as an aspirant devotee is quite confounding, if I may say so. What did you go there for in the first place, to transpose your incorrect theories of feminism to the Hindu heartland or to advance on your personal quest for the divine?<BR/><BR/>In summary, do I deny that modern India has got many, many issues to tackle? NO. But I do take exception to your opinion as to the root causes of them. Not that you're wrong, at least not completely, but there are many other factors which as an insider to Indian samskriti (even though I was born somewhere else) I instinctively and intuitively sense but that you cannot even begin to comprehend, as an outsider. Likewise, I'd subscribe to the version expounded by Indian swamis any day as the real word of shastra, rather than seriously consider anything coming from a few foreign-born dabblers in yoga and so forth.<BR/><BR/>As a final note, what you term as liberality is synonymous with degradation and degeneration in my books, and I am personally quite appalled by the route down which my Indian homeland is going these days. Just to give you a taste of how vehement my aversion to occidental "values" is, I shall conclude by stating that I'd rather watch India mutate into a fundamentalist Wahabi nation than end up fully taking to the rotten methods of Europe and America. Feel like having the last word? Please be my guest.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-87406553949621722022008-02-22T22:41:00.000+01:002008-02-22T22:41:00.000+01:00Regarding the KAMA SUTRA as mentioned by a comment...Regarding the KAMA SUTRA as mentioned by a commenter here;<BR/><BR/>Kama Sutra is written from the male perspective, and as far as my research goes, was intended for the upper class royals and similarly highly educated folk (sanskrit literature). There are various theories on erotic temple sculpture, and some of them are very prudish indeed such as, "the outside walls of our temples represent the life we need to leave behind once we enter into the sacred interior of the holy space". <BR/><BR/>From my readings of Vedic supplementary texts, I have not gleaned an extremely permissable society, especially not for women. I also have gleaned that covering of a woman's hair (and possibly even the face) was something that possibly could have been existent in South Asia prior to the advent of Islam.<BR/><BR/>I think the combination of ancient Indian ideals in regards the behaviour of "chaste women" and the glorification of rishis and sages who were either lifelong celibates or eventual vanaprasthas and sanyasis at the end of their married life, as well as later Islamic and Victorian influences are definetly a part of the dysfunctions around women and sexuality we experience in India today.<BR/><BR/>Funny, when I see the issues that are being dealt with in India right now, I see a parallel in all of the religious groups that are Indian influenced here in the West, the ones I'm exposed to anyway.<BR/><BR/>While the West may have progressed, there is an element of backwardsness in many of us who have adopted Indian religions as our own. It is as if we substituted one set of dysfunctions for another, and in many cases, one set of healthy native functions for unhealthy, foreign dysfunctions.<BR/><BR/>The case for such is especially strong in ISKCON (the International Society for Krishna Consciousness), yet I cannot say that my own sect is totally free either.<BR/><BR/>Issues regarding the place of women, sexuality, celibacy and transgenderism are also being tackled by us Westerners who have adopted some sort of an "Indian model" towards life.<BR/><BR/>The parrallels are striking.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-79180935490971672192008-02-22T00:32:00.000+01:002008-02-22T00:32:00.000+01:00I love the last comment by Vikram.I'm a western In...I love the last comment by Vikram.<BR/>I'm a western Indo myself, and I get tired of hearing Westerners looking for every opportunity to ridicule Indians and India, and feel themselves better. Why they go to live in India, or accept an Indian guru really puzzles me. Too much superiority complex is what I am noticing, way too much, while in the west people are commiting suicide, going crazy. depressed, drugged, super- stressed, because of problems created by European lifestlye and laws. <BR/>I doubt that the guy indeed raped Lila, but since the family is white the accusation will be accepted as a fact by all. I say again the two were sharing a romantic affair and something went sour. Forget about what the mother is saying. Its hard to lose a child, but I dont think she was an innocent little girl as they are trying to portray, who was raped by this super-lusty Indian.<BR/>Some of these people are so unappreciative of Indians, they do not appreciate anyone who is not a part of the white controlled Iskcon institution. There are also some who criticise Vedic culture, scripture, and brahmins etc.. This is pure yavana, nothing but yavana culture. <BR/>I was one time in Braj on a tour with white devotees and they instructed their pilgrims to give one or two rupees only, not more, as donation to any temple besides Iskcon.<BR/>I'm so repelled by their snobbishness, I steer clear of them most time, But thankfully there are there are exceptions like Adwaita and other gems like him, who do not display this racism/ superiority complex. Thats why I maintain warm feelings towards people like them.<BR/>Any kind of superiority complex obstructs one from reaching Krishna. According to Chaitanya, one should feel lower than a blade of grass and give respect to others.<BR/>There is a reason Chaitanya and Krishna appeared in India, in spite of the crimes and criminals, and not in Europe. Think about it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-72979843210495355452008-02-21T20:35:00.000+01:002008-02-21T20:35:00.000+01:00" Nobody in their right mind would deny some of th..." Nobody in their right mind would deny some of the problems that come out of living together, but at least Asians (not just Indians) have a semblance of humanity left in them."<BR/><BR/>And non-Asians have zero humanity?<BR/><BR/>This is both untrue and inflammatory.<BR/><BR/>"Perhaps if you were from Switzerland, Dubai, Japan or New Zealand, you'd have a better platform from which to judge others (of course, I don't know where you're from, but if you're from America, you better put a sack in it, since no land on this planet is as despised by the rest of the world as the US is)."<BR/><BR/>Excuse me? Because I took birth in the US I must not form or express opinions? Sorry, that's not going to happen.<BR/><BR/>I have spent most of my adult life in India. I definetly know a thing or two about that place, I definitely have opinions about it, and I am definetly going to express them. <BR/><BR/>I also will not delve into the details about Indian culture and it's issues with sexuality here. However, having seen things first hand, having talked with Indians personally about their problems, suffice it to say, I could write volumes. But I'm not going to.<BR/><BR/>I also know that there are benefits to joint family living, just as there are benefits to nuclear family living. However, as the issue here is the harrassment and death of a young woman and the cultural, social, pscyhological ethos that may have contributed to that, what we are addresssing is the DYSFUNCTIONS of Indian culture, not the healthy functions. <BR/><BR/>Every culture on this planet has it's good and bad. I am not a hippie dippie westerner with dialeted pupils who waxes eloquent while idealizing and romantizing the Orient. Quite the contrary. <BR/><BR/>India has some good points over the country and culture I was born in. Similarly, the country and culture of my birth has some good points over the country of my current residence - India. The place of women in society happens to be one of them. There is marked difference in how I am treated in the US compared to what I face in India. Many women, Indian and non, concur. There is no comparison actually. I have never felt as unsafe in US, even at night in urban areas, as I do in daytime in Uttar Pradesh. Nor have I ever been sexually harrassed in US. <BR/><BR/>Not all cultures are the same or even equal. Some are better in some areas than others. India is better than US in some areas, in some areas it is worse. <BR/><BR/>You seem to write in terms of black or white. I deal in shades of grey. <BR/><BR/>By stating that forced celibacy results in sexual repression and frustration does not mean that I am in favor of "hedonism".<BR/><BR/>If you read the yoga books of Indian swamis from the 1940s-60s, the ones who's disciples paved the way for the yoga movement in America later on, you will find unrealistic, naive and strange ideas about sexuality and an over glorification of celibacy. <BR/><BR/>However, if you read yoga books written by western practitioners of yoga, the approach to both celibacy and sexuality is much more realistic and balanced. <BR/><BR/>It is this middle path that needs to be sought in order for a human being to come into balance. <BR/><BR/>Personally, in the circles that I hang in the west, we pretty much have a down-to-earth approach about these things. Being neither impressed by celibates or sexual hedonists, we all seem to be pretty much "ok" in this area. So far no women have complained of being sexually harrassed by any of our men, and no one in a relationship has complained of dissatisfaction, neither have the few "celibates" complained of frustration. Healthy and responsible sexuality is appreciated for the positive role it plays in the mental and physical health of individuals, couples, families and the larger peace of community. For some adults "healthy sexuality" may mean complete celibacy, and that is fine too, as long as it is a personal choice and not one arising from societal or family pressure or especially EGO (hoping to gain acceptance and adoration for being a "tyagi").<BR/><BR/>There are indeed middle class people in Braj. But Braj's middle class may be "lower middle class" in places like New Delhi or Mumbai where incomes are higher.<BR/><BR/>Regarding this comment;<BR/><BR/>"The relationship between parents and their offspring, or lack thereof, in the West, is equally the cause of countless ills which is plain to one and all but which you conveniently choose to downplay or ignore, and this reeks of intellectual disingenuousness."<BR/><BR/>I believe I did mention the lack of parental presence in Lila's case, didn't I? <BR/><BR/>Anyway, I may be wrong but it appears to me that your experience living in India is very limited. Yes, divorce rates are rising, which I see as a positive thing in cases of abuse. Women, (and some men) are finally feeling empowered enough to leave toxic and dangerous marraiges. They have my full moral support. However, in the divorce rates are rising where? In the small towns like Mathura/Vrindavan? In villages like Benur? Or is it in metros like Bangalore and their surrounding suburbs?<BR/><BR/>Vikram, I invite you to reside in Braj for say, oh, a good 3 years. Then you might actually gain insight into the psyche of the North Indian villager, small towner.<BR/><BR/>Even just a few years ago, one of only 2 Braj women that I know who are divoreced, was so ashamed of being divorced that when I asked where is her husband, she remained silent, eyes cast down. Finally after about 30 minutes our mutual friend explained that she was divorced and that is why she remained silent. Um, ok. <BR/><BR/>I'm sure you are a well meaning individual and your writing for the most part is polite, but you seem to have some over-idealistic views of India's modernization. INDIA SHINING CAMPAIGN, but going the other way.<BR/><BR/>India is not the hub of liberality you would make it seem.<BR/><BR/>Regarding the HIV spread, much of it is due to married truck drivers who cheat on their wives with prostitutes on the road, get AIDS, and take the AIDS home to their wives. <BR/><BR/>That also speaks volumes about the wives' positions, but this is not the place for me to get into that. There are so many NGOs trying to empower those women and writing about it right now as I type. No need for me to write more.<BR/><BR/>Although in my heart Braj is my home and there is nowhere else (for now) to find rasik vaishnavas but in India, still, socially as a woman, I feel much more safe and at mental peace in other countries.<BR/><BR/>This is just my personal reality and no amount of poetry can convince me otherwise, nor should it even try.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-20978991555838581702008-02-21T18:55:00.000+01:002008-02-21T18:55:00.000+01:00Mr. Ramsoondur,You fiercely defend Indian culture ...Mr. Ramsoondur,<BR/><BR/>You fiercely defend Indian culture but where are you spending your precious human life: in the West. If you ask Westerners whether they would swap their western lifestyles for an Indian life style, there is great chance most would reply "no, thank you, I prefer to live as a westerner, defects and all." But if you ask Indians if they would adopt a western life style, many are sure to reply, "yes, I like to try". And in fact, many Indians are trying, inside and outside of India. Why are Indians copying the West if it is so beneath their standards? You do not address the fact that there are great problems with Indian/Asian cultures, the greatest of all and its Achilles tendon, the problem of objectification of women. The West is ahead of Asia in this aspect. To Asians, the West may appear to be on the corrupt side with regards to women's liberties. But the fact is that the West is undegoing a process of finding a solution for the quest for human equality in all levels. The West is being forced, by necessity, to find said solution in other recourses than force and imposition, which is the outdated model still lingering in Asia. Is the West succeeding then? Apparently not YET, but one advantage found here, and which evidently is gaining credibility with young Asians, is that anomalies such as mysoginy, abuse, racism and castism no longer can expect to pass for the norm of a culture. It is silly of Westerners and Asians alike not to recognize where our weaknesses and strengths are, especially in a time where old vices and new blunders can and are being easily and equally spoted.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-54905056013103852982008-02-21T14:01:00.000+01:002008-02-21T14:01:00.000+01:00"That Indian people are popping out babies like ca..."That Indian people are popping out babies like cats and dogs does not mean they are having SATISFYING sex lives with their spouses."<BR/><BR/>Frankly, what do you know about the sex lives of Indians? There is much stuff that I wouldn't write as comment on a spiritually-oriented blog, otherwise I could educate you all about the matter at length. Put simply, your post is not entirely useless but what you say is far from encompassing the entire picture.<BR/><BR/>"Joint family IS alive in well in most of India. In fact, in all the Indian homes I have been to - maybe one hundred or more - that was the living style. Yes, some call center workers in Delhi are living singly and facing issues. Sometimes they also continue to live in nuclear family after marraige. This is the minority. I can't speak for Mumbai, but in New Delhi, the norm is joint family, rich or poor, high class or low."<BR/><BR/>Even if I were to concede to this, which I'm not since personal experience and my knowledge of Indian statistics tell me differently (hence my seriously questioning your observational faculties and taking the whole of your post for what it is, i.e. a self-seeking tirade of typical Western-influenced hypocrisy and demagoguery), there is nothing inherently worse about joint families than what you have in your own dysfunctional Occident. Nobody in their right mind would deny some of the problems that come out of living together, but at least Asians (not just Indians) have a semblance of humanity left in them. My own Dadi of 86 years of age lives at my uncle's very near my place, and my heart melts each time she plays with my little tyke, her great-grandson. Also, my own parents live next to me, so my family isn't a typical extended example, but the immensely beneficial physical proximity of my child's grand-parents to him is palpable for anyone to see. I also consider myself truly blessed to have had my grannies look after me when I was little. Yes, we do believe in caring for our elders, and rightly so, unlike in some parts of the globe where the selfish, self-centred, messed-up folks living there tightly hold their dogs and cats to their bosoms but send their mothers and fathers, what to speak of grand-parents, to old peoples' homes, effectively consigning senior citizens to spend their last days meaninglessly.<BR/><BR/>"Also, having been a 25 year old woman in India myself, although I don't need coddling, it was dangerous. If I had a 25 year old daughter, knowing what I do about that country and it's attitudes towards women, I would not encourage her to live their all alone. I'd go with her if I could."<BR/><BR/>If I had a daughter of whatever age, I would seriously caution her against potential dangers no matter what country she was living in. Having spent a large part of my life in London, and having travelled a bit elsehwere, I know for a fact that nobody is safe anywhere in the world, least of all in Yankeeland. Perhaps if you were from Switzerland, Dubai, Japan or New Zealand, you'd have a better platform from which to judge others (of course, I don't know where you're from, but if you're from America, you better put a sack in it, since no land on this planet is as despised by the rest of the world as the US is). The bottom line is, however, that no place on earth is free from such troubles, and only somebody in a coma would argue otherwise.<BR/><BR/>"Celibacy - by this I did not mean that the average Indian family encourages one's son or daughter to become a brahmachari yogi/ni type. I meant that even for unmarried adults, they are expected to refrain from relationships with the opposite gender before marriage. This creates a big problem in the psyche of people in their mid 20s to mid 30s who are still single. <BR/><BR/>However, on the other hand, in religious communities celibacy as described above IS idealized, even amongst families in Braj. That has it's own set of complications which I won't address here."<BR/><BR/>You should take the matter up with young Indian yuppies and see whether or not they don't burst out in wild whoops of laughter in your face. And the fact that SOME people may feel frustrated because of comparable sexual matters speaks more of their own decadence than it does of the societal expectations thereof. In erstwhile days, this was certainly hardly an issue, and celibacy was way more prevalent than today. The now widespread Western-originated ethos of hedonism that is sweeping the planet is doing its job perfectly, by dehumanising the earth's current batch of humans and propounding consumerism as the ultimate goal of life. Ineluctably, nowadays, morals increasingly take a battering from various quarters, since policy-makers and multi-nationals have a monumental stake in keeping us dullards of Kali-yuga engrossed in the bodily concept of existence. Once again, I find it mystifying that somebody professing to be a Vaishnava wannabe lacks the basic insight to perceive such an obvious reality. What's more, the evidence points in the exact opposite direction than what you believe. HIV is on the verge of becoming chronic in much of India, and divorce rates keep soaring, which speaks reams about the stupidity of the persons concerned but simultaneously counters your points. <BR/><BR/>"Well, so much could be written, there is alot of material to work with in India, that is for sure!"<BR/><BR/>I haven't finished reading up Western intellectuals thump their own (embarrassing) histories and ideological short-sightedness, both of which are greatly responsible for the pandemonium of a world we currently have, so I guess I'll take up India in the aftermath of that. <BR/><BR/>I thought I was finished with this post when a few additional grotesquenesses started glaring at me, so I reckoned I would complete the job and then leave. So, here are a few more pearls from our anonymous pal:<BR/><BR/>"All of the "middle class" people in Braj have toilets and bathrooms in their homes."<BR/><BR/>There are no middle-class folks in Vraja as such, unless you wanna include lower middle classes, which I don't, as I count them as working class. The 300 million-strong middle class of India is almost exclusively an urban phenomenon, with certain exceptions, as always exist. I'm formally trained in finance and economics, and this is how I earn a living, therefore I do know how to classify populations on these bases. And I also read enough about the Indian economy to have full confidence in what I'm asserting.<BR/><BR/>"I wish it were true that after the age of 25 in India that a son or daughter no longer needed "coddling" but this is precisely what Indian mothers do to their SONS their entire life (could write a book about the Indian ma-beta relationship)."<BR/><BR/>One could write just as voluminously if not more so about the clinical parent-child relationship that persists in almost all non-Asian peoples generally. The relationship between parents and their offspring, or lack thereof, in the West, is equally the cause of countless ills which is plain to one and all but which you conveniently choose to downplay or ignore, and this reeks of intellectual disingenuousness. <BR/><BR/>Where I do concur with you is that not only poor people urinate in public in India, and this does spawn revulsion in lots of individuals, myself included. And harrassment of many varieties is definitely there, which needs addressing too. The last 2 Anons do make some searching remarks, and I would tend to chime with them on what they write.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-38521347826506524282008-02-21T12:25:00.000+01:002008-02-21T12:25:00.000+01:00To the anon who posted the 'wagging willy dance' c...To the anon who posted the 'wagging willy dance' comment - this heads towards obscenity, which is not allowed. Secondly, I do not agree that T-shirts are <B>not</B> revealing.<BR/><BR/>To the anon who commented with Red Riding Hood - this too is a border-case, since it's swerving off-topic.advaitadashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11562361400492002096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15485481.post-53807034386102913442008-02-20T20:30:00.000+01:002008-02-20T20:30:00.000+01:00The last comment was quite good. Everywhere people...The last comment was quite good. Everywhere people are facing oppression and abuse. Right now the suicide rate in America is climbing and the reason according to research is economic/ social problems.<BR/> I also heard that a percentage of men in certain European countries have pedophile tendencies, hence the popularity of child porn on the internet.<BR/>Yes its important to be on guard at all times, and become educated about what is going on.<BR/>Anyone would try to exploit a person who is gullible, naive, too trusting and innocent, for personal purposes. <BR/> The tendency to trouble others, for our own gratification is present in all of us, even though we are not concious, or care to admit it. Knowing that, its important to always keep up the guard, because the wolf is always eyeing Red Riding Hood to make his move, and feast. No set of laws and policing will ever stop the bad wolf. <BR/>But still, there are also wolves lurking in the family, most times. Too many 'devotees' do not believe in karma. According to the scriptures, suffering is a result of past sins. Yet we are too concieted to admit the extent of our sins. Thats the other side of the coin, the side that enrages a good many 'devotees.'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com