Bhakta – “You say Advaita Prabhu is Rati Manjari but I thought Raghunātha dās Gosvāmī was Rati Manjari.”
Advaitadās – In Gaura Ganodddeśa Dīpikā different other identities are given to Rati Manjari too, is any of them wrong? Raghunātha dās Gosvāmī is said there to be Rasa Manjari. Can you limit identities in the spiritual world?
“Rūpa Manjari's closest friend is known by the varying names Rati Manjari and Lavanga Manjari by the wise and appeared as Śrīla Sanātana Gosvāmī.”
“Śrīla Raghunātha dās Gosvāmī was the incarnation of Rasa-manjari. Some say that Raghunātha dās Gosvāmī was the incarnation of Rati-manjari, and others say he was the incarnation of Bhānumati-devi.”
Bhakta. Some say one should not take Giridhāri (the Govardhan śilā) out of Braja –
Advaitadās – The proponent here does not give any translation. This is the translation:
Bhakta – In this connection it is sometimes said that if one who is not realized gives dīkṣā, then the flow of realization will not reach the next generation.
Advaitadās – Gaurakiśora dāsa babaji, Jagannāth dās babajī and Vaṁśīdās babaji all had brāhmin-gṛhastha gurus and became siddha still.
Bhakta - Some say rāgānugā bhakti starts at the stage of ruci, quoting for instance Bhakti Sandarbha (Anuccheda 310) - ato rāgānuga kathyate. yasya pūrvoktaṁ rāga-viśeṣe rucir eva jātāsti na tu rāga-viśeṣa eva svayaṁ, tasya tādṛśa-rāga-sudhākara-karābhāsa-samullasita-hṛdaya-sphaṭika-maṇeḥ śāstrādi-śrutāsu tādṛśyā rāgātmikāyā bhakteḥ paripāṭīṣv api rucir jāyate. tatas tadīyaṁ rāgaṁ rucy-anugacchantī sā rāgānugā tasyaiva pravartate.
"Now we will discuss rāgānugā bhakti. When a person develops ruci for the aforementioned specific rāga, even though that rāga has not yet arisen in him, the heart becomes like a crystal, shining as it reflects the rays of the moon of that rāga. By hearing from śāstra etc. one develops ruci for the actions of the rāgātmikā-associates, Then, by following the rāga of a particular associate in accordance to one's ruci, one performs bhakti which is called rāgānugā."
Bhakta: Then Bhakti Sandarbha Anuccheda 312 is quoted -
tasminn eva nānā-vikṣepavati rucy-abhāvena rāgātmika-bhakti-śailīm anabhijānāti
"In the absence of ruci persons experience different types of mental distraction, and thus, they are unable to understand the behavior of the rāgātmikā bhaktas (eternal associates)."
Advaitadās - This does not say the generic stage of ruci is required to attain rāga bhakti. It speaks about anarthas that may occur while practising rāgānugā bhakti sādhanā itself, without having too much ruci at the time. Also, the text says bhakti, not bhakta, so it means „They do not understand the ways (śaili) of rāgātmikā bhakti‘.
Bhakta - Also in Anuccheda 312 - tato rucer viralatvād uttarābhāvenāpi yad aikāntikītvaṁ tat-tasyaikāntika-mānino dambha-mātram ity arthaḥ
Advaitadās - This speaks about the rareness of taste for bhakti on the whole, it does not state that rāgānugā bhakti itself is not attained without being on the generic, official level of bhakti named ruci.
Bhakta – They then quote Bhaktirasāmṛta-sindhu: 1.2.5-6 -
vaidhī rāgānugā ceti sā dvidhā sādhanābhidhā. tatra vaidhī—
yatra rāgānavāptatvāt pravṛttir upajāyate. śāsanenaiva śāstrasya sā vaidhī bhaktir ucyate.
"Bhakti performed without raga is vaidhi. In this context, rāga means ruci."
Advaitadās - The commentaries of both ācāryas to Bhaktirasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.5-6 say tad ruci, taste for rāgānugā bhakti, not the official, generic bhakti-stage of ruci. ruci broadly means just ‚taste‘.
Imagination is technically rajasic and will never result in realization.
Advaitadās - Where is the evidence for this? What if aparādha is committed?
Heno kṛṣṇa nāma yadi loy bahu-bāra; tabu jodi prem nohe nohe aśrudhār
Tabe jāni aparādha tāhāte pracura kṛṣṇa nāma bīja tāte na hoy ankur [CC Ādi 8.29-30]
Advaitadās – In Gaura Ganodddeśa Dīpikā different other identities are given to Rati Manjari too, is any of them wrong? Raghunātha dās Gosvāmī is said there to be Rasa Manjari. Can you limit identities in the spiritual world?
yā rūpa-mañjarī-preṣṭhā purāsīd rati-mañjarī
socyate nāma-bhedena lavaṅga-mañjarī budhaih
(Gaura Ganodddeśa Dīpikā.181)
“Rūpa Manjari's closest friend is known by the varying names Rati Manjari and Lavanga Manjari by the wise and appeared as Śrīla Sanātana Gosvāmī.”
dāsa-śrī-raghunāthasya pūrvākhyā rasa-mañjarī
amuṁ kecit prabhāṣante śrīmatīṁ rati-mañjarīm
bhānumaty-ākhyayā kecid āhus taṁ nāma-bhedataḥ
(Gaura Ganodddeśa Dīpikā.186)
“Śrīla Raghunātha dās Gosvāmī was the incarnation of Rasa-manjari. Some say that Raghunātha dās Gosvāmī was the incarnation of Rati-manjari, and others say he was the incarnation of Bhānumati-devi.”
Bhakta. Some say one should not take Giridhāri (the Govardhan śilā) out of Braja –
Advaitadās - Where did Giridhāri-worship start? In Puri, not in Braj. Śrīman Mahāprabhu himself took Giridhāri out of Braj. The problem is not with taking Giridhāri out of Braj but a possible lack of sadācāra and responsibility. The Deity is like a baby, and should be cared for non-stop.
Bhakta - Some want to prove bhāgavat-paramparā, a selection of the greatest ācāryas-only, by quoting Mahāprabhu instructing Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmi - ei śuddha bhakti iha hoite prema haya, pancarātre, bhāgavate ei lakṣaṇa kaya (CC Madhya 19.169)
Advaitadās – The proponent here does not give any translation. This is the translation:
‘This is pure bhakti, from which prema arises. Its symptoms have been described in the Nārada Pancarātra and in the Śrīmad Bhāgavatam.’
You see this has nothing to do with a hand-picked paramparā at all.Bhakta – In this connection it is sometimes said that if one who is not realized gives dīkṣā, then the flow of realization will not reach the next generation.
Advaitadās – Gaurakiśora dāsa babaji, Jagannāth dās babajī and Vaṁśīdās babaji all had brāhmin-gṛhastha gurus and became siddha still.
Bhakta - Some say rāgānugā bhakti starts at the stage of ruci, quoting for instance Bhakti Sandarbha (Anuccheda 310) - ato rāgānuga kathyate. yasya pūrvoktaṁ rāga-viśeṣe rucir eva jātāsti na tu rāga-viśeṣa eva svayaṁ, tasya tādṛśa-rāga-sudhākara-karābhāsa-samullasita-hṛdaya-sphaṭika-maṇeḥ śāstrādi-śrutāsu tādṛśyā rāgātmikāyā bhakteḥ paripāṭīṣv api rucir jāyate. tatas tadīyaṁ rāgaṁ rucy-anugacchantī sā rāgānugā tasyaiva pravartate.
"Now we will discuss rāgānugā bhakti. When a person develops ruci for the aforementioned specific rāga, even though that rāga has not yet arisen in him, the heart becomes like a crystal, shining as it reflects the rays of the moon of that rāga. By hearing from śāstra etc. one develops ruci for the actions of the rāgātmikā-associates, Then, by following the rāga of a particular associate in accordance to one's ruci, one performs bhakti which is called rāgānugā."
Advaitadās - The phrase 'even though that rāga has not yet arisen in him' shows it has nothing to do with having to attain the generic term of ruci first. ‚According to one’s ruci‘ means according to one’s own taste, not that rāgānugā bhakti itself starts from the official generic stage of ruci, the 6th of 9 stages of devotional development as mentioned in Bhaktirasāmṛta-sindhu 1.4.15-16. Viśvanātha Cakravartī writes in Rāga vartma candrikā, 2.7 – atha rāgānugā-bhaktimajjanasyānartha nivṛtti niṣṭhā-rucy-āsakty-antaraṁ prema-bhūmikārūḍhasya “Now it will be described how the rāgānugīya bhakta gradually advances through the stages of anartha nivṛtti (cessation of bad habits), niṣṭhā (fixation), ruci (taste), and āsakti (attachment to the beloved deity) up to the stage of prema.”
The course of development of both vaidhi- and rāgānugā sādhana is the same, and separate symptoms of the three stages of sādhana-, bhāva- and prema-bhakti of both vaidhi- and rāga-bhakti have been given in Bhaktirasāmṛta-sindhu (First wave, chapters 2, 3 and 4). One may claim that the stage of ruci is still within the boundary of sādhana bhakti, but the above statement of Viśvanātha Cakravartī about the course of rāga bhakti excludes that.
Bhakta: Then Bhakti Sandarbha Anuccheda 312 is quoted -
tasminn eva nānā-vikṣepavati rucy-abhāvena rāgātmika-bhakti-śailīm anabhijānāti
"In the absence of ruci persons experience different types of mental distraction, and thus, they are unable to understand the behavior of the rāgātmikā bhaktas (eternal associates)."
Advaitadās - This does not say the generic stage of ruci is required to attain rāga bhakti. It speaks about anarthas that may occur while practising rāgānugā bhakti sādhanā itself, without having too much ruci at the time. Also, the text says bhakti, not bhakta, so it means „They do not understand the ways (śaili) of rāgātmikā bhakti‘.
Bhakta - Also in Anuccheda 312 - tato rucer viralatvād uttarābhāvenāpi yad aikāntikītvaṁ tat-tasyaikāntika-mānino dambha-mātram ity arthaḥ
"Because this ruci is extremely rare, if one considers himself fixed in exclusive devotion, yet is without reverence for scriptural injunction, his so-called exclusivity in devotion is merely a pretense."
Thus it is shown conclusively that rāgānugā-bhakti is impelled by ruci, and without ruci one cannot follow the associates of Śrī Kṛṣṇa because one is incapable of even understanding the nature of their services. Advaitadās - This speaks about the rareness of taste for bhakti on the whole, it does not state that rāgānugā bhakti itself is not attained without being on the generic, official level of bhakti named ruci.
Bhakta – They then quote Bhaktirasāmṛta-sindhu: 1.2.5-6 -
vaidhī rāgānugā ceti sā dvidhā sādhanābhidhā. tatra vaidhī—
yatra rāgānavāptatvāt pravṛttir upajāyate. śāsanenaiva śāstrasya sā vaidhī bhaktir ucyate.
śrī-jīvaḥ: yatra bhaktau pravṛttiḥ puṁso rāgānavāptatvāt rāgeṇanavāpteti hetoḥ śāstrasya śāsanenaiva upajāyate . sā bhaktir vaidhī ucyate . rago’trānurāgas tad-ruciś ca
visvanāthah: vaidhīti - rāgo’tra rāgas tad-ruciś ca."Bhakti performed without raga is vaidhi. In this context, rāga means ruci."
Advaitadās - The commentaries of both ācāryas to Bhaktirasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.5-6 say tad ruci, taste for rāgānugā bhakti, not the official, generic bhakti-stage of ruci. ruci broadly means just ‚taste‘.
Bhakta - Śrī Jīva Goswāmī’s ṭīkā to Bhaktirasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.300 is then quoted: yad vinā mūla-tat-tad-rūpa-līlādy-asphūrteḥ. "Without hearing there is no sphūrti (momentary vision) of the sweetness of the forms and pastimes." Here Srila Jiva Gosvami explains that lobha depends on "kincid anubhūti". In your sangha it is translated as "a slight feeling", but Jiva Gosvami explains in this purport that "kincid anubhūti" means a sphūrti, an actual realization, coming from sravanam. If raganuga-bhakti depended on a slight feeling than everyone would be qualified, but as we have shown earlier, the qualification is extremely rare.
Advaitadās - Bhaktirasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.300 has nothing to do with the ruci-stage at all. No one in ‚our sangha‘ has said kincid anubhūti in this context means a slight feeling – these words are not there in Jīva Goswāmī’s ṭīkā to verse 300 at all. Instead they appear in his ṭīkā to Bhaktirasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.292, and it does not mean that everyone would be qualified – there needs to be lobha in the first place which does not depend on personal purity as this is not mentioned in any śāstra at all. Without even the slightest lobha no one will be qualified for rāgānugā bhakti, which is simply attained by the grace Kṛṣṇa and His devotee – kṛṣṇa tad bhakta kāruṇyā mātra lābhaika hetukā - Bhaktirasāmṛta-sindhu 1.2.309. Bhānu Swāmi translates kincid anubhūti as 'realizes to some degree'. Full text of his translation – „When a person realizes to some degree the sweetness of the love and activities of the inhabitants of Vraja through hearing from the scriptures such as Bhāgavatam, which describe these siddha devotees, his intelligence may develop disregard for the injunctions of scripture (śāstram) and logic (yuktim), though logic is certainly employed”
Bhakta - Furthermore, Bhaktirasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.45 -
svalpāpi rucir eva syād bhakti-tattvāvabodhikā . yuktis tu kevalā naiva yad asyā apratiṣṭhatā.
srī-jivah: atra bahirmukhān praty anyad apy ucyate ity āha—kiṁ ceti. rucir atra bhakti-tattva-pratipādaka-śabdeṣu śrīmad-bhāgavatādiṣu prācīna-samskārenottamatva-jnānam.
Here Srila Rūpa Gosvāmi says that this bhakti-tattva is unintelligible for those who do not have at least a little ruci. Srī Jīva comments that ruci means the person has samskaras (impressions) of bhakti-śāstra such as Srimad Bhagavatam from the previous lives.
Advaitadās - If ruci in Bhaktirasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.45 would be the generic stage of ruci mentioned in Bhaktirasāmṛta-sindhu 1.4.15-16, the official sequence, then even vaidhi bhakti would be unattainable. Bhānu Swāmi translates the verse properly as 'Even if one has a little taste (not official ruci-stage but just 'taste') he can understand it.' Something totally different from 'one needs to have the ruci-stage of bhakti to commence rāgānugā bhakti'.
Imagination is technically rajasic and will never result in realization.
Advaitadās - Meditation on the siddha deha is not imagination. rāgānugā mārge anutpanna rati sādhaka bhaktair api svepsita siddha dehaṁ manasi parikalpya - 'On the rāgānugā-path even sādhaka bhaktas who have no rati yet can think of his own desired siddha deha." (Kṛṣṇadās Kavirāja’s Sāraṅga Rangadā ṭīkā of Kṛṣṇa Karṇāmṛta - 3)
Bhakta – „Only chanting three lakhs harinama daily will sufficiently purify the heart for the spontaneous appearance of Sri Krsna's form, qualities and pastimes.“
Advaitadās - Where is the evidence for this? What if aparādha is committed?
Heno kṛṣṇa nāma yadi loy bahu-bāra; tabu jodi prem nohe nohe aśrudhār
Tabe jāni aparādha tāhāte pracura kṛṣṇa nāma bīja tāte na hoy ankur [CC Ādi 8.29-30]
‚Even if one chants the holy name of Kṛṣṇa many times but there is no prema and tears do not flow, then I know a lot of aparādha is committed, because of which the seed of the holy name does not sprout.‘